I really, really hate to bring this up (I'm not trying to ruin your life, Skywalker, honest...), but can I once again ask about ventilating timber floors?

Last time we bought carpet, we were told the zig-zag or waffle structure under expensive underlay is for ventilation. This sounded mad to me - ventilation under carpets? But I have to admit that, when the old underlay was lifted, areas of the groundfloor boards did indeed show the pattern until they dried out.

Was I hallucinating, or would aerogel laid over timber need grooves to allow a tiny amount of air flow?

My late Saxe-Coburgian ('30's) house also has vent pipes through the odd solid floored bit. The room we use as an office has 3 air bricks serving the underfloor void and along with the sleeper walls (honeycombed wall in the middle of the underfloor to support it) we also have large access holes made by some very enthusiastic plumbers in the 70's opening up the whole underfloor area. So the void under our house is served by 20 odd air bricks spread around all four sides - floor area of about 60m2.

S.

I wonder how compressive aerogel is and whether it could be used as/or in combination with an underlay for carpet?

I am not sure aerogel has an advantage for underfloor insulation, if this is the suspended floor variety. PUR when cut to size goes very nicely in between the rafters resting on nails driven into the rafters. It probably also allows a bit of air still to flow.

I think the aerogel as provided by Proctors may not have much 'trample' resistance. If used under carpets. The aerogel is in a black matrix and could turn to dust if trodden on repeatedly. That said I know they use aerogel inside boots that climb everest. So a carpet underlay should be easy!

Aerogel is good when you need the insulation to be thin and where you need the insulation to breath. So it is much better for walls IMHO which do not want to be made thicker e.g. to avoid having to replace all the external sills etc.

Does anyone have further news on the aerogel wallpaper underlay I keep hearing about?

I think I am going to look into using aerogel as carpet underlay in my front room. At the moment I have an uninsulated suspended timber floor. Will contact Proctor for a local supplier and let you know how I get on.

<<I think I am going to look into using aerogel as carpet underlay in my front room. At the moment I have an uninsulated suspended timber floor. Will contact Proctor for a local supplier and let you know how I get on.>>

Mike did you get any further with this as I would like to do the same?

Brian

I have a 4mx4m basement with a solid concrete floor, then damp-proof rigid plastic, then wood-boarding, underlay and carpet.... and its still too cold in here. (walls and ceiling have insulated plasterboard too)... how much would 16 m2 of aerogel underlay cost me, and how can I tell whether it would be worth the money?

Hi guys. Thank you all for the useful comments: I arrived here in late October after reading about SpaceTherm at http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-Spacetherm-aerogel-thermal-insulation.html

I've some notes which I hope are useful.

The story so far:
I was about to get 25m^2 of vinyl floor laid in ground-floor room (Victorian t&g floorboards on joists) but was also interested in insulation:
* a friend nearby installing underfloor insulation reports v.useful increase in comfort (but it's a nasty job for someone my age, size & shape, AND he had a lot of existing boards up where I have a nearly pristine floor).
* the draft under the floor is fierce: the bare boards in the unheated room are often only 2C above outside air temperature.

Proctor Group sell SpaceTherm-C -- SpaceTherm bonded to 18 or 22mm chipboard. Unfortunately my vinyl fitter wanted a ply surface and I wanted to keep total increase in level under 24mm to avoid having to adjust 9+m of skirting radiators.

I decide to try laying 9mm of SpaceTherm blanket under 9mm WBP ply: hoping that in use the blanket would provide a) enough insulation to be worthwhile and b) a firm enough support for the ply and that the ply would be thick enough to distribute loads so that the blanket doesn't suffer from repeated compression causing uneven wear. I will be comparing this room with the kitchen which has the ply+vinyl but no insulation.

I ordered 18 of 2.4x1.2m x9mm blankets (enough for a second room) from Travis Perkins. Delivery was 4 days Proctor to TP.

The blankets came in 3 large polythene bags. What I thought was several litres of milk drifting round in each bag was loose aerogel :-)

I've since laid the floor and am waiting for the vinyl. Installation for that is now mid-January so I thought I'd write this up while I still remember :-)

I've:
- filled some small gaps in the boards
- fixed two the loose boards
- laid lining paper to protect the aerogel blanket from splinters and the grooves between boards
- laid the blanket
- nailed and screwed the ply (35mm screws and 30mm annular ring nails - I didn't want to use 40mm nails which would have risked going through the boards) Yes the nails+screws will transfer heat through the blanket, at least they're not exposed directly to the underfloor draught.

Notes:
- the blanket looks like dark blue felt underlay, it can be walked on without damage, but the surface scuffs easily.
- it sheds aerogel -- everywhere! Some blankets had a crust of aerogel that I tried not to disturb.
- aerogel is like light talcum powder: small and light enough to get through overalls, (cheap) leather work gloves, the heavy sheet over the doorway and drift throughout the house -- all the way to the attic rooms I was quickly told :-(
- it takes very little aerogel to clog a vacuum cleaner! It's v.important to minimise shedding, to sweep up (carefully!) (and keep on cleaning as it settles out of the air).
- I found cutting with large scissors caused less dust than a sharp knife

While I'm waiting for the vinyl, things I'm thinking about:
- I'm tempted to paint the ply with diluted PVA to seal in the aerogel that's settled on which comes out when e.g. hammering but won't brush off or vacuum up.
- I'm wondering what to do at the exposed edges: doorway and fireplace. Current thought is neat PVA.

Other misc. thoughts:
- if I'd know about SpaceTherm when I had double-glazing put in, I'd've put sheets below the (sash) windows which only have 1 layer of brick and thin wood.
- if I had space and suitable weather I would cut and try to remove loose aerogel outside the house: once it's in the house it's a lost cause. I'm down for a full three-story clean once the vinyl's down.

I hope this helps people.

Best wishes
-- CB

Posted By: cbatjesmond- aerogel is like light talcum powder: small and light enough to get through overalls, (cheap) leather work gloves, the heavy sheet over the doorway and drift throughout the house -- all the way to the attic rooms I was quickly told :-(
- it takes very little aerogel to clog a vacuum cleaner! It's v.important to minimise shedding, to sweep up (carefully!) (and keep on cleaning as it settles out of the air).

Cheers for the info, I wonder what it does to lungs...

Posted By: chriscCheers for the info, I wonder what it does to lungs...

Well if I don't report back on temperature differences between Kitchen and Sitting Room before the end of January 2009: Fear the worst! :-)

Aerogel seems pretty inert so I'm much less concerned about it than I am about the soot, sawdust, plaster-dust, lead-paint and all the other crap I'm exposed to in this place. But I was masked.

Posted By: JackyRThink I'll wait for you guys to report back after 5 years' wear, tho...

Mmmm not sure I'll remember to come back (or even still be around!) in December 2013. I will report back to this thread if anything crops up soon.

Best wishes
-- CB

<Q>
I think the aerogel as provided by Proctors may not have much 'trample' resistance. If used under carpets. The aerogel is in a black matrix and could turn to dust if trodden on repeatedly.
</Q>

It may be best to give some support e.g. screwing in stilts into the plywood so there is no pressure placed on the aerogel itself and all the weight of the floor is taken by the stilts screwed into the plywood.

Posted By: SaintWhat sort of price did you pay through TP?

When writing the above I hoped nobody would ask that because I can't lay my hand on the invoice ATM!

My memory says gbp48/sheet excl.VAT (at 17.5% -- I'd hoped that it would attract the 5% rate but that's only if the supplier installs it). But between my memory, USD/GBP exchange rate changes and VAT rate changes, best get a quote! Give your local TP the Proctor Group sales number and you should get the actual price in a few minutes.

One other note to add to the above: the blankets are 2400x1200mm which is sort of irritating when the ply comes in "8x4": 2440x1220mm sheets. But this does mean that blankets and ply didn't share common joints, which is good. But I had to make separate templates for the ply and SpaceTherm!

My attempt at attaching pictures failed, so they should be online at:
http://www.ccandc.org/misc/spacetherm/index.html

Hi Brian,
Proctors do not have their own Aerogel. They are the UK distributor for Aerogel products designed for building applications from Aspen Aerogel the manufacturers based in Boston. There are other partners and distributors for Aspen Aerogel products that go into different applications e.g. industrial, fire protection, military, oil and gas, thin cladding panels and specialist uses where the Aerogel is required to be cut, shaped and encapsulated.
Proctors, in the UK, have been allowed by Aspen Aerogel to rebrand some of the product as Spacetherm which identifies a family of products adapted for use in the construction industry. These are principally laminates of Aerogel bonded by Proctors to plasterboard, Fermacell and timber sheet as well as the fleece in its original form.
The fleece is made by diffusing Aerogel in a dissolved form into a variety of different fabrics depending on the fleece's requred end use characteristics.
It has been used in flooring applications in Europe, Asia and of course the US.
As part of the testing for footwear it has gone through extraordinary extended flexing cycles a bit like the famous slamming door test as demonstrated by the well known Swedish furniture manufacturer with little degradation in performance.
As for its use in flooring it has a compressive strength not dissimilar to the EPS commonly used and greater than typical carpet underlays.
One major benefit would be that as it equates thermally to much thicker sections of common insulation then any deflection, under continuous load and calculated as a percentage of the original thickness, would be minimal in comparison.

Graeme, that's extremely encouraging. Await further developments with interest...

Graeme,
You make a very good point about camper van insulation and indeed caravans. It seems incredulous that bearing in mind the cost of some of these vehicles and for a big RV that can be in 6 figures that their insulation levels are no better than those of the 1970s.
20 - 25mm mineral wool, EPS, XPS or in some cases EPS coloured to look like XPS in the walls and roofs is common and why? there are no standards, public ignorance I guess and of course cost(!!!)