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    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2012
     
    Many new buildings use dry lined wall finishes and although these can sometimes be reasonably air tight (though often are not) outdoor air can infiltrate too easily behind the linings.

    Has anyone got any thermal imaging pictures of blobbed and dobbed walls in the winter or on windy days?
    • CommentAuthorPaul_B
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2012
     
    Sorry can't help with thermal images but my own experience of doing up our 10 year old house is that daub and dab is a joke for air tightness. In just one room I disovered the plasterboard on the ceiling in places was an inch too short allowing a path from loft space into the room and plasterboard, it was covered up so to speak with coving.

    Although an attempt had been made at the top and bottom of the plasterboard to have a continous run of plaster it in practice had many voids, but worse still is at the sides no attempt had been made to seal in the air, one room simply allowed air to pass into the next. Then the soil pipe is not air tight or properly insulated so the air from room to room can be drawn up into the loft space to be replaced by cold air.

    Our house uses metal studs for the partition walls, the studs have big holes and although some of the partitions are insulated with rockwool you can clearly see even after 10 years where draughts are an issue because of all the dirt / soot on the rockwool. Then you have all the cuts for pipework, electrical, etc making it easy for cold air to circulate and warm air to escape.

    So I think you once wrote that the use of daub and dab with plasterboard is like living in a tent is pretty accurate, that or thinking a sieve is a good idea for boiling water.

    Paul
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2012
     
    I haven't come across a plasterboard blob and daub wall yet, but here is a TI of a composite lining board where you can see the cold bridges for the fixings and the air leakage via the conduit dropping from the ceiling void down to the light fitting.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2012
     
    Thanks,

    Take some more please!!! If possible of some real dry linings.
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2012
     
    OK, here's a scary one of our office ceiling...
    •  
      CommentAuthorikimiki
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012 edited
     
    ...Being slightly opportunistic, this thread prompts the question: Is it possible to rent/borrow a thermal imaging camera such as the one used above? [in the Manchester, UK area]

    Aside from waiting for this to arrive:
    http://www.robhopeless.com/2012/09/thermal-imaging-phone-camera.html
    http://www.rhworkshop.com/
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2012
     
    The picture is ceiling showing cold joists -- I would still love to see blobbed and boddeed walls in cold weather even in a new house -- may be when it gets colder?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    I have been fortunate to have been able to see the whole story behind blob and dobbed walls recently with a builder being able to completely take down the outside brick shin and the inner blockwork on a late 1990's wall between a living room and a garage to extend the lounge. At this time NHBC rules under which the house was built sais "complete ribbons of adhesive" the blockwork had cracks and gaps and there were holes round the joist ends. As the wall was between the house and garage it had no cavity insulation.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014 edited
     
    This problem is so widespread, costing us so much energy as a country, costing householders bucket loads of money, yet almost no one cares.

    Anyone up for developing a solution to this problem?

    All you are looking at here is a single row of plasterboard sheets standing up with all the masonry removed!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    It's the smoking-gun evidence - almost as important as https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=807953379222467
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    Tom, I'm a bit confused - are you saying tony's evidence is obvious nonsense?
  1.  
    All this proves is that quality of workmanship is not what it is supposed to be.

    Problems like this are common to many building practices

    eg.

    Loft Insulation incorrectly installed at eaves
    Partial fill Cavity wall Insulation missing/not fixed adequately /not taped
    Hit and miss retro filled cavities - due to poor assessment or poor filling or both

    The codes of practice for all of these are there - and they work if done correctly - including so called blob and dob the problem lies with them not being done as specified.

    On the subject of blob and dob - no one ever seems to mention that EWI adopts the same blob and dob practice for fixing the Insulation to the wall - why is this?
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
  2.  
    Mike, I'm even more worried about EWI systems which do not use adhesive - too much scope for thermal by-pass. I hope to have 2 walls of my house EWI'd, and will be insisting on a full adhesive bed and mechanical fixings.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    Posted By: Ed Daviesare you saying tony's evidence is obvious nonsense?
    Not unless it's a CGI fake, like the plane video
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    You saying that the death of over 3000 workers was a fake?
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014 edited
     
    I have a few thermal images of the 1940s equivalent - plasterboard attached to horizontal wooden battens on a concrete block party wall that I can dig out if you like. It is noticeably cooler than the adjoining IWIed external wall.

    Though the rest of the house is non-traditional I don't think there was a non traditional method at the time of making a fireproof and secure party wall so they switched back to masonry but still dry lined it for convenience. After Victorian terraced house nearby burnt down together with its neighbour due to deficient fire walls, I'm rather reassured to have this!

    As for the blobbing, isn't there a case that methods that are inherently prone to shoddy short cuts should be prohibited? After all, once the plasterboard is up it will be very difficult to tell whether it has been done properly or not.

    Ed
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    Posted By: Nick ParsonsEWI systems which do not use adhesive - too much scope for thermal by-pass
    AFAIK air cavities don't necessarily mean thermal bypass. Thermal bypass is when an air cavity or passage allows a path between hot and cold zones, so convection currents arise which transfer heat, bypassing the insulation.

    That's not the case with narrowish air layers, of similar width to those in multipane glass units, which lie transverse to the general direction of heat flow. In that orientation, air layers actually add to overall insulation, provided the cavity width is narrow enough to impede the establishment of convective 'cells'.

    It's different if the cavities lie parallel with the general direction of heat flow, like the joints between EWI block edges. Such cavities provide a path direct between extremes of hot and cold, and even if only fag-paper width, there's strong convective urge, and a lot of frontal area, if you total up all the unfoamed EPS edge joints.

    So it's actually advantageous to fix your EPS blocks by dot n dab rather than continuous bed. The resultant narrow air cavities add to overall insulation.

    The only way such an air cavity might still act as a bypass, is if it's continuous over wide areas of the wall face. Different areas of the wall will be at different temperatures, so a continuous cavity might act as a path between hot and cold. So make sure each air cavity behind the EPS is no more than 1m2 (about 2 EWI blocks), dividing up by continuous ribbons of adhesive, with dots in between.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014 edited
     
    Tom, I think that the arguments presented that that video is a CGI fake are, at best, seriously mistaken (I suspect “lie” or “delusional” would describe them better):

    1) Nobody I know of suggests that the aircraft cut through the steel structure. Quite the contrary, the steel cut through the aircraft atomizing the fuel - hence the immediate large fire/explosion. See the aircraft which crashed into the Pentagon (there's no room for doubt there) where large parts of the aircraft were shredded and just disappeared into the building.

    2) The building the wing goes behind is obviously in the foreground - just look at the sizes of the windows - how he thinks, or thinks anybody who's viewing it would think, it's further away than the towers is beyond me. Apart from anything else, from that angle the building would have to be enormously high to be behind the towers.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014 edited
     
    Hm, you may be right about the 'distant' building - but the right wing also goes 'behind' the corner of the target building for a moment - explanation?

    You're saying that the building sliced up the jet, not the jet sliced into the building? Remarkably clean slicing - why no rain of bits that didn't get through the slicer?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeathe death of over 3000 workers was a fake?
    Not at all - just a 'strategically worth it' Pearl Harbour re-run, to get America into a new war.

    I too was sceptic/agnostic about 9/11 conspiracy theory, but not for a while now. Just like the notion that America's middle east wars were about oil hegemony, not freedom and democracy, took 10yrs to become "well, obviously" common wisdom.

    Yes, this film may or may not itself be a fake, either by the guy who 'filmed' it and prob made lotsa money out of it, or by the CIA, or by the conspiracy theorists. Planes did hit the buildings, and 3000 were killed and lots more poisoned. It looks though like the whole thing was correographed, including the classic controlled demolitions by placed explosives - including the third tower which wasn't hit by anything.
  3.  
    AtomicBISF wrote: ''As for the blobbing, isn't there a case that methods that are inherently prone to shoddy short cuts should be prohibited?''

    Tony's suggestion is that it *was* 'prohibited' -or at least contrary to NHBC guidance - at the time it was built. The problem is that either no-one is looking, or they are not prepared, if they do spot 'blob and dob' to insist that it be ripped off.

    And FT, I agree that it *may* not be an issue with EWI, particularly if you ''.....make sure each air cavity behind the EPS is no more than 1m2 (about 2 EWI blocks), dividing up by continuous ribbons of adhesive, with dots in between.'', but then in my view, that's not really dot and dab.

    Nick
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomHm, you may be right about the 'distant' building - but the right wing also goes 'behind' the corner of the target building for a moment - explanation?
    Looks like a compression artifact to me resulting from the low contrast between the bottom of the wing and facade of the building. As soon as there's enough wing there to not just be noise it pops up cleanly enough. Not sure if frames have been interpolated to allow the slow motion - might be an artifact of that as well/instead. Be interesting to see the original, though, ideally as separate frames.

    You're saying that the building sliced up the jet, not the jet sliced into the building? Remarkably clean slicing - why no rain of bits that didn't get through the slicer?
    I've seen the results of much lower speed aircraft accidents where there have been remarkably clean cuts made. Thin aluminium vs steel girders makes it seem reasonable to me. Maybe there was a rain of bits inside the facade. Bits too small to see on this video or obscured by the smoke. Other bits just stuck to steel girders, etc. This is just a short clip lasting a small number of seconds in real time (without the slow motion) so not enough time for bits to fall noticeably.
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    Posted By: fostertom
    Posted By: SteamyTeathe death of over 3000 workers was a fake?
    Not at all - just a 'strategically worth it' Pearl Harbour re-run, to get America into a new war.

    I too was sceptic/agnostic about 9/11 conspiracy theory, but not for a while now. Just like the notion that America's middle east wars were about oil hegemony, not freedom and democracy, took 10yrs to become "well, obviously" common wisdom.

    Yes, this film may or may not itself be a fake, either by the guy who 'filmed' it and prob made lotsa money out of it, or by the CIA, or by the conspiracy theorists. Planes did hit the buildings, and 3000 were killed and lots more poisoned. It looks though like the whole thing was correographed, including the classic controlled demolitions by placed explosives - including the third tower which wasn't hit by anything.


    That certain interests benefited from the attack doesn't mean they were involved. Controlled demolition is simply too implausible given the number of charges that would be necessary, being installed in buildings that were in use. I think this story gained traction because some conspiracy theorists couldn't understand some basic physics, such as the windows blowing out below the zone of collapse due to air pressure produced by the collapse of the floors above. This superficially looked like demolition charges. Much like they couldn't or wouldn't understand that steel looses much of its strength at well below the temperature at which it melts and started wittering about the temperatures not being high enough.

    Besides, if you're going to the trouble of crashing two planes into buildings, why is demolition necessary? And if the whole thing had been planned to facilitate the invasion of Iraq, surely it was a major flaw in the conspiracy to fail to make it appear the attack had anything to do with Iraq? The whole thing is wildly implausible.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    Posted By: atomicbisfsurely it was a major flaw in the conspiracy to fail to make it appear the attack had anything to do with Iraq?
    Any connection to Iraq proved to be an unnecessary detail.
    Posted By: atomicbisfThat certain interests benefited from the attack doesn't mean they were involved
    I might say "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching me"!
    Posted By: atomicbisfwindows blowing ... looked like demolition charges
    There were sequential sets of flashes down the building. Steel showed signs of v high temp not possible from burning fuel.
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    And nobody walked on the moon, they were only in Arizona.

    /sarcasm alert/
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    9/11 did happen

    /alterness alert/
  4.  
    >>Just like the notion that America's middle east wars were about oil hegemony, not freedom and democracy, took >>10yrs to become "well, obviously" common wisdom.

    Woah there. That's a very different assertion - many of the banners at the anti-war protests before the invasion of Iraq suggest that was a widely held belief before the first bombs fell.

    9/11 being a conspiracy is a very different thing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014 edited
     
    Same - there was early Iraq/oil awareness and there was almost immediate 9/11 conspiracy suspicion. Personally I was early on Iraq but a longtime agnostic about 9/11.

    By 10yrs later, Iraq/oil was universally accepted - it crept in almost unacknowledged. Likewise it took me about that long to get what 9/11 was created for (or possibly, it was just seized upon). Only difference is that 9/11 is not yet universally taken as "obviously", as Iraq/oil is.

    I wonder why not - both are equally gross, cynical, catastrophic, well within military/industrial complex's capability - and only a belief in CIA decency would classify either as inconceivable.

    It's well documented and almost officially acknowledged that both British and US intelligence knew that Pearl Harbor was imminent, so all the best ships were out at sea. In fact Britain and US deliberately provoked Japan to strike the first blow. It served to get the US public to accept entry into WW2, which all could see was about to be lost without their intervention, and US could see that she'd emerge from holding all the cards.

    So what's different?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    Would that have been to secure a very small supply (still not done after 23 years), or because they started trading in Euros instead of Dollars.

    'Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.'
   
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