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      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    One of the conundrums I've been pondering over with my new build is stopping the bedrooms from over-heating in summer. Planning constraints have forced fairly large south-facing roof lights as the only first floor windows allowed (at the moment), apart from a small window in the east gable end, an obscure glass roof light to the north (in the bathroom) and a light pipe over the stairwell. (see birds eye view below, which is almost north-up)

    Having been to visit a friends barn conversion, where he's shifted the living accommodation to the first floor, I'm now thinking along the same lines. The advantages are that I no longer need to worry about fire escape using the roof lights, so can move them further up the roof, which looks better from the lane, as I can add an external staircase at the east gable end leading to a door into what would be the kitchen end of a vaulted open plan kitchen/dining/living room that runs the whole length and width of the first floor (width a bit restricted by being a 1 1/2 storey design, because of a planning restriction on roof height and an EA restriction on ground floor finished floor level).

    The more I think about it the more sense this seems to make. Heat rises, and we, like many people I suspect, prefer bedrooms to be a degree or two cooler than living rooms. Putting the bedrooms downstairs means they don't get all the solar gain, so should stay cooler. It also means more space is available for nice-to-haves, like en-suites and a dressing room off the main bedroom. The living rooms will get direct solar gain even in winter through the roof lights, whereas before I was looking at how I could shift heat from upstairs to downstairs. All the "big bore" foul plumbing will be on the ground floor, so no need to box in big pipes.

    All told I'm struggling to see any major snags, and beginning to wonder why more houses aren't built upside down. What have I missed?
      Birds Eye view - small2.JPG
    • CommentAuthortychwarel
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    Why Not

    My new 3 floor house built 2 years ago has its bedrooms on the lowest floor with the living rooms above, entry is via the middle floor into a kitchen diner with the lounge above.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    Totally agree with you JSH, I think ground floor for kitchen/living etc is historical and because it saves climbing stairs to the rooms used the most. Heat wise it makes perfect sense to reverse rolls. I would prefer living downstairs but I plan a large sunspace off living and kitchen openable to the garden (and my dog is a bit old and finds stairs difficult).
    • CommentAuthorqeipl
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    My kitchen/dining/living space is upstairs and bedrooms downstairs. I love it. Lots of light and solar gain where you want it. Four veluxes and a gable window to open if things get too balmy. Bedrooms rarely get too hot. Definitely the way to go.

    My only caveat is that you should think in advance about old age/disability.
    I have space to install a wheelchair-sized lift if/when I can't get up the stairs.

    I've just returned from butlering for my OAPs, one of whom has a broken leg and the other can't walk the length of himself without running out of breath. Makes you realise that it comes to us all sooner than we think.
    If you intend to live in the house for the long term, wheeled access to upstairs is worth planning in advance.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012 edited
     
    Thanks for those positive comments, I was beginning to think I'd missed something, as it seems a fairly simple way to arrange the living spaces for energy efficiency.

    Another advantage of rearranging it like this is that I can use a wide, straight staircase, with no turns and straight access to the front door and hall with clear space in front, making the later addition of a stair lift/wheelchair lift a fairly straightforward thing to do. Previously I'd had to use a quarter turn winder to get enough room upstairs for the bathroom.

    A paraplegic friend has a simple platform lift that runs up the side of his stairs, it folds up against the wall when not in use and seems pretty neat. Perhaps the same sort of thing could be used as an aged dog lift, John?
    • CommentAuthorCerisy
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    One factor that kept us from putting the living accommodation upstairs was the ability to simply walk out of your dining room or lounge into the garden. For us with loads of garden in France linking the living spaces with the garden was important - it even out-weighed the benefits of looking at the amazing view from the first floor, we'll just have to stay in bed longer with our morning cuppa!
    • CommentAuthorSteveZ
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    We live in a bungalow, so all our rooms are on the ground floor :bigsmile: A downside to ground floor bedrooms, apart from being unconventional in a multi-storey building, is the slight sense of vulnerability if you like to sleep with a window open (apologies to all PassivHaus people out there). To give a feeling of security, I have fitted neat key operated cable window locks (Jac-lock) as one of us insists that there is an open window at night. The usual window handle locked 'ajar' position is not enough, apparently :neutral:
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    A friend has his place sort of half-and-half, with only their main sitting room upstairs and their master bedroom downstairs, all in one half of the house. The rest is the original house, laid out conventionally, with the kid's rooms upstairs, office, snug-lounge, kitchen, vast dining room/lounge on the ground floor. They've decked across to their terraced garden from the gable end with their sitting room and the garden path curves around to access it. There's a balcony on the side with the best views.

    They'd stood in what was originally going to be their bedroom and looked out of what was then just a hole in the wall, looked at each other and realised that they'd be pulling the curtains on that view and sitting downstairs looking out on a stone wall!

    A lot of the holiday cottages we go to have the layout upended, too. Yeah, it not only makes a LOT of sense, it's a real no-brainer.:bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    The last three houses we've lived in have been bungalows, too, so we're pretty used to sleeping on the ground floor. I'll admit that when we replaced the windows in this house we did make sure the bedroom windows all had small opening windows at the top for summer ventilation, that are too small to climb through. The bigger opening panes remain locked (but with a key with a big, easy to feel for, fob in easy reach, but out of sight, in case of fire). The new house will be as close to passivhaus as I can make it, so will have MVHR, anyway.

    Access to the garden would be nice, but we have patio doors from our living room to the garden where we are now, and rarely use them for anything other than added ventilation. I'm working on a cunning plan to retain garden access, but it hinges on resolving the previously mentioned overlooking non-problem with the neighbour.
    • CommentAuthorpmusgrove
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    I think the main reason for the living space being on the ground floor is that historically people spent more time moving from the kitchen to the yard to the garden and back to the pantry (utility room). Our house has three bedrooms upstairs and one down. The one down makes the house a "lifetime home" in the housing jargon which may have been one of the factors that got it through planning.
  1.  
    A dumb waiter would be a good addition for bringing up those heavy groceries.

    I presume you will keep the utility room downstairs to avoid hauling clothes up and down?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    I have lived in two bungalows, I find something very comforting about going upstairs to bed.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012
     
    Trailing Your Teddy behind you?:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeMay 23rd 2012 edited
     
    One thing that strikes me is why not make a gable end to the rear in the middle and then you could have access across to the upper garden area (including the means of escape).

    I'd recommend looking at U-Roof as the roof design is much cleaner and a bigger floor area can be achieved than a trussed roof - unless you are still looking at SIPs.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2012 edited
     
    Unfortunately the planners won't allow a gable on the north elevation, nor will they allow anything more than that one small obscure glass roof light and the light pipe that's there at the moment, as the house that sits some distance away on the hill to the north (the retaining wall and fence is the lower boundary of their garden) would look directly at it. There's only 1.8 m between the rear wall of the house and this retaining wall.

    If I can overcome the false concern about overlooking from a window/door on the west gable first floor (which I think I can by raising the garage height slightly) then I can put windows in that elevation to provide escape. I'd quite like to add a small balcony on that end, too, as it would be fairly private (if screened at the north and south sides with hit-and-miss panelling, or perhaps obscure glass) and would allow a connection from the living room to the garden.

    Thanks for the reminder about U-Roof, I may look at it again. Currently SIPs is still the plan, to give as much space on the first floor as possible whilst still getting a U value of around 0.1.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2012
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaI find something very comforting about going upstairs to bed.

    I find comfort in sending our children up to bed. Feels safer to have us between them and the world. Not that we could do anything against the bogeyman really...
  2.  
    Hi,
    Agree living probably used to be mainly downstairs - garden/street/yard.
    We have a split level and becuase we have a kitchen/dining / bathroom-shower room on one level & so long as the aaccessable door was at that level is wasnt questioned. Its height difference is just under whats termed a "stair" but would be more than a single step for the infirm. Proved not to be a cause of concern on the accessability regs.
    Our downstairs loo/shower is the one that takes most of the use, simply becuase its more convieneint than traipsing upstairs. Same could apply to basements, why not put bedrooms down there - I never look out my bedroom window anyway.

    Cheers, Mike up North
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2012
     
    Posted By: joe90I think ground floor for kitchen/living etc is historical and because it saves climbing stairs to the rooms used the most.


    Sounds like a pretty sound reason today too. Do you really want to be trudging up and down the stairs all the time? Maybe not such a problem in winter when you tend to stay put indoors, but in summer when you're coming and going from the house it'd be a pain.

    Thermal efficiency is only one consideration, the house has to be pleasant to live in as well. Putting the most commonly used rooms in a less accessible place doesn't make much sense to me. It might also adversely affect the value of the house, if that's a concern.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2012
     
    I suppose it depends on a lot of things as to whether or not having the more frequently used space upstairs or not is a good idea. There are plenty of flat and apartment dwellers who have to go up stairs to their living spaces and I spent most of my working life in offices or labs that were at least one floor up (and frequently had to come and go from them during the day) and can't say that I ever thought of it as a problem. There's also a fitness argument that might support going up and down stairs more regularly as a way to stay healthy.

    In our case there will be two rooms downstairs that will see a fair bit of use during the day, a library for SWMBO and a study for me. During the day I tend to move back and forth from the workshop outside to the study, with brief forays into the kitchen for tea, lunch etc. The majority of upstairs trips during the day will be those for tea, I expect............
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2012 edited
     
    I think Shevek made some good points about wheelchair access in this thread...
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=8604

    I had never thought until then about the scenario of someone elderly or disabled simply coming to visit. Worth thinking about if access to living space would be restricted.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2012
     
    Make sure that you have a toilet downstairs if possible to minimise frantic running upstairs if effects of previous copious tea drinking masked too long while you are concentrating in the workshop. That or pee in the lane.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2012
     
    "That or pee in the lane."

    Purely in the interests of research, of course.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 24th 2012
     
    Does tea make you pee? wondered what caused it :shocked:
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2012
     
    There's a strong correlation and a known mechanism! B^>

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2012
     
    Posted By: DamonHDMake sure that you have a toilet downstairs if possible

    It's a building regs requirement, isn't it?
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2012
     
    Noise is another factor to consider when putting living rooms upstairs. People tramping around over your head when you're sleeping is a lot more annoying than when watching TV or reinventing the nuclear bomb or whatever. So it may be wise to increase the spec of the first floor.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeMay 25th 2012
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: djh</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: DamonHD</cite>Make sure that you have a toilet downstairs if possible</blockquote>
    It's a building regs requirement, isn't it?</blockquote>

    Yes it is, plus the toilet downstairs needs to be able to be accessed by a wheelchair user.

    In my case there will be two toilets downstairs, both easily accessible, so it shouldn't present a problem with the regs. Looking at a rough layout I've been working on, the house could even be fairly easily adapted to have a self-contained downstairs apartment, so could be converted for single floor living if the need arose.
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeMay 27th 2012
     
    We have the best of both - 3 bedrooms upstairs and one downstairs, with the option of swopping the Dining and 4th bedrooms around to give a master sized bedroom. Bathrooms on both floors. I agree that the rooms on the GF are cooler and this is also helped by the internal block walls on the GF which provides thermal mass. The internal walls upstairs are stud partitions.

    One other point of note is that bedrooms on the North or East side of the house are cooler than the others. The bedroom on the North East corner is definitely the coolest.

    An East facing aspect I think is the best as there is some solar gain in the morning in winter / spring and in the summer the peak mid-day and afternoon gains are minimised.

    I have been addressing the overheating issue in the master bedroom but will start another thread to avoid hijacking this one.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2012 edited
     
    .
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