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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    http://www.bdonline.co.uk/5037187.article?origin=BDweeklydigest
    Hope you can access this - for once it seems to open to non-BD-subscribers.

    This guy is staggeringly unaware of the Transition Movement. He is the epitome of the worn-out lefty that he's bemoaning, who is empty of new ideas. Transition is the new left-plus-eco agenda, that has plenty of energy in it right now, but remains completely under-the-radar as far as most of the world is concerned.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    You still need to register on the site and then get 'bombarded' with an annoying pop-up that appears every few seconds asking you to subscribe.

    Transition isn't pointing the way to a new socialist utopia, well, unless you see it as just one stage on the way to the final solution, that stage being the dictatorship of the proletariat needed to adjust everyone's thinking along the right lines. :wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    Eh? That's a bit of an old version of 'left' innit? We can let go of 150yr old Marxist definitions. Even today's Marxists (whatever that means) manage to redefine the issue into 'effective choice' being available to all (as distinct from only being offered the choices that the multinationals' marketing machines offer). Well, Transition is certainly that.

    Integral to Transition is also new means of governance, other than traditional majority-rule 'democracy' (a great system for ensuring that 49% or much more % are left with their wishes denied, and plotting their comeback 'next time'). Transition's aim is to abandon the old 'we win so you lose' srtaitjacket, instead practical ways to create consensus.

    Remember that Anarchism (everyone taking responsibilty for themselves) was running neck and neck with Marxism (everyone taking what the 'other' has, in shortage) as the coming thing, until exterminated by Marxism's inherent ruthless authoritarian streak.
    • CommentAuthorJTGreen
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    I thought that transition was rigorously apolitical - at least according to founder Rob Hopkins. Its obligatory positivity also means that it can't offer much of a critique of anything - or at least not explicitly.

    I certainly wouldn't place it on 'the left' if left means supporting social change to the benefit of ordinary people vs. wealthy vested interests (to put it simply). Nor on the right particularly (though TT does seem to see small scale capitalism as particularly benign) - just a bit 'outside' of (and purposefully ineffectual in relation to) conventional politics of any description. Of course, local currencies contain some implicit critique of the damage wrought local economies by global financial systems - but when the Euro is in crisis and the Greece looks like it could default, the Lewes and Brixton pounds are a bit of a sideshow.

    An interesting setting out of the problem from an anarchist perspective here -> http://trapese.clearerchannel.org/resources/rocky-road-a5-web.pdf

    and Rob Hopkins response here -> http://transitionculture.org/2008/05/15/the-rocky-road-to-a-real-transition-by-paul-chatterton-and-alice-cutler-a-review/
  1.  
    If progress is to be made then the mind set that ecology somehow "belongs" to the left very much needs to be abandoned

    Infact, the sooner that the whole left wing/ right wing dichotomie is seen for what it is and abandoned, the sooner we can move on and make real progress.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: JTGreen'outside' of (and purposefully ineffectual in relation to) conventional politics of any description
    I think that's what I said.
    Posted By: JTGreentransition was rigorously apolitical - at least according to founder Rob Hopkins
    A very 'political' or pragmatic stance, designed to let his ideas spread without knee-jerk opposition - i.e. 'we' win.
    I'm surprised to hear that Transition doesn't result in
    Posted By: JTGreensupporting social change to the benefit of ordinary people vs. wealthy vested interests
    how so?

    I'll read those two refs with great interest.

    It's refreshing, JTGreen, to hear from someone who knows the difference between Anarchism, and the mindless lawless violence habitually portrayed by Murdochist (and predecessor) media serving at different times both Labour and Tory agenda. Anarchism remains the true threat and competitor to the old fashioned ding-dong definition, which has us fooled into thinking if it's not ding-dong it's not politics.
    • CommentAuthorJTGreen
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    I suppose because I think in the end you have to be clear about what those wealthy vested interests are and how they operate in relation to the economy, society and ecology. TT seems to me to fudge this question (you say pragmatically) for what in my mind can only be one of two reasons a) they are genuinely a bit woolly and unthought out or b) deliberately masking what they think to 'grow the movement'. If it's the latter, I think they'll become unstuck, because you can't win people if you aren't honest. If it's the former, I think they'll become unstuck, because they haven't a clue what they're up against. I'm not suggesting that anyone else necessarily has better answers.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    Tom, that's the distinction between Anarchism and anarchism. :wink:

    Remember with great fondness the night-long discussions with the Wolfie Smiths of the London Federation of Anarchists! They just couldn't see the irony. That was back in 1966.

    Did have my first early morning visit from Special Branch following my suggestion in a letter to the LFA that I'd give space in my small-mag to the 'movement' if they assassinated the Royal Family, or indeed any member of the Establishment. I laughed fit to burst when the big guy in the trench coat (REALLY) asked me to explain what I'd meant by "inciting" such an action. Had to patiently explain that it was just me taking the piss out of a bunch of dreamers (mostly middle-class or 'posh' as they were known back then) who had no experience of the real world.

    Not a lot seems to have changed.

    (Oh, and when I asked the SB bloke how he'd known what I'd said in my letter, he said: "We have our methods." He looked quite affronted when I asked if that involved steaming-open envelopes. Now, of course, they'd be hacking emails, which is much simpler.)
  2.  
    I heard in Germany they have an anarchy day ,
    starts 9.00 am sharp. ( sorry couldn't help myself)

    I once read an article discussing how the international post service was an example of anarchism in action.
    Co-operation between separate entities without an overall governing body
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    :bigsmile:

    Anarchy Day is any one of the 365, starting when you get out of bed.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: Joinerthat's the distinction between Anarchism and anarchism
    Does anyone say that? Don't think so.
    Between a) Anarchism and b) anarchy or anarchist maybe.

    Posted By: JTGreento fudge this question (you say pragmatically) for what in my mind can only be one of two reasons a) they are genuinely a bit woolly and unthought out or b) deliberately masking what they think to 'grow the movement'
    Or maybe to create an alternative reality 'under the radar'.
    Posted By: JTGreenIts obligatory positivity also means that it can't offer much of a critique of anything - or at least not explicitly.
    Do you proceed with positivity, enthusiasm and creativity, or do you allow yourself to get drawn into pouring your water down the deep well of critiquing 'them' at every turn? To convince who? Not 'them', for sure.
    • CommentAuthorJTGreen
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    Plenty of activism that is against things (tar sands, new airport runways, etc..) is full of positivity, enthusiasm and creativity. Part of being against something is knowing what you are for. You can pour a lot of water into reviving traditional skills (aka 'resilience') such as preserving and knitting and planting hedgerows and there's a lot to be said for that, but I don't think it's a more (or less) serious response to climate change than activism on the issue. Using local currencies, being part of a CSA or running permaculture workshops doesn't obviate the need for people who give a toss about climate change to do everything in our power to prevent Boris Island if we can. The two are not counterposed, and I wish that TT wouldn't paint explicit political engagement as something negative.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    bot: I disagree with you on many things but we are in accord on this. I am a member of the local Transition energy group and I am NOT a natural leftie by any stretch unless Thatcher's children quietly got co-opted by Marx's heirs. No narrow political grouping should be allowed to even try to capture some of these vital issues and scare others away. We all need to be involved in the solutions.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    Trouble is, as I said on another thread, Transition groups tend to assume that those joining them share ALL their opinions. They're not a broad church, having been established by people with a particular agenda in order to attract like-thinking others. Can't be any other way, if you think about it, otherwise you'd get nothing done, having spent all your time arguing amongt yourselves. :cry:
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    Hmm, I said as much to a certain government minister last weekend (virtual name-drop alert), ie those of us going to TT are self-selected middle-class do-gooders of some ilk. Not all male at least in the group(s) I go to, but fairly tightly circumscribed in other demographic details.

    Which doesn't make TT wrong at all, just a very narrow part of any solution.

    There was a good IPPR presentation I went to on one of their papers---"Consumer Power"---a little while ago (I never normally attend such things, but the day set itself up for me, with a CIBSE meeting nearby IIRC) which pointed out that lecturing to the early adopters such as TT attendees and those who have no control nor spare resources (possibly those in genuine fuel poverty rather than just spent it all on fags) is a waste of breath. Preaching to the choir.

    Trying to get to the people in the middle, who are swayed by impressing their neighbours, the Daily Blech, X-Factor, etc, is much more likely to be productive, and has to be on their terms, often money. Get the green and the other green lined up and make people feel good about it and you may have a winner. One good quote from that day, possibly from a marketing person in the audience rather than on the panel or paper, was "Catch yourself doing something right and do more of it!" I still use that near the top of my 'green' site's home page.

    I understand that may seem patronising but it isn't intended to be: people see the world through different lenses and it's important for the message to meet them half way.

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    I'm friendly with Totnes top Transitioners and I can assure you they are far from apolitical.

    Depends what you mean by political. If to qualify as political it has to be in the old mould, workers vs bosses, yah boo sucks to the very death, then go on, enjoy national politics, which is opium to the masses' powerless indignation, while the multinationals and the military get things more and more how they like it, regardless of which colour has the 1% controlling vote alternately. Go further out, to the right wing and the activist hard left, and they're still wasting all their energy both preaching to the converted and critiquing the other, as if the other was even listening.

    Along comes something that fits neither mould, has radical reform of society as its consequence, but wastes little energy in futile debate and demonstration, has the development of practical consensus governance as integral, and gets on apace with creating a new reality while the old guards remain oblivious, focussed on each others' asses. Because that's what it does, it's classed as non-serious, naive, happy clappy etc.

    Posted By: DamonHDI am a member of the local Transition energy group and I am NOT a natural leftie by any stretch
    I should hope not, if by leftie you mean as in second para above. That's really obsolete, tho still in full swing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    Posted By: DamonHD"Catch yourself doing something good more of it!"
    Sounds good but is there a line missing? I don't understand.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    FT: Edited in above to correct fingers moving slower than brain. Thanks for pointing it out.

    Again with feeling: "Catch yourself doing something right and do more of it!"

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    I like the idea of TT and its goal to improve resilience and build community . I'm an allotmentier etc. etc.
    But I can’t help but think that when push comes to shove , the people who strive for the TT ideals will be getting all the pushing and some bugger will nick my cabbages.
    Did anyone watch the film "The Road" on bbc2 Sunday night, if you like your science fiction bleak and hopeless it's one to watch. Very bleak and probable
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01jk6cp/The_Road/
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    Keep catching echoes of "What The Green Movement Got Wrong".
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    We're on the corner of the council estate which has seen police abseiling down into crack dens amongst other treats. My house is described as "modest". If push comes to shove we're probably already toast, which is why my efforts are focused on avoiding the push / putsch happening rather than the "more beans and ammo" approach of some on the US renewable energy board that I help moderate. Your cabbages may well last longer than my PV!

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    Lets hope so :cool:, Yes action is the solution
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012 edited
     
    Yes - all you can do is push on with creating new reality, and as they say - 'Be realistic - plan for a miracle!'.

    If no new reality is created, then there's certainly nowhere to go, as the present one continues to deteriorate, with no one having any idea how to restore it to health (if it ever was healthy).

    Posted By: jamesingramaction is the solution
    But what kind of action? Trad 'political' action seems to sink without trace - the system is totally resilient, co-opting all frontal attack. Remembering instead that big revolutions (not talking 'political' revolutions) seem to come from nowhere, are explicable only in retrospect.

    It's straight Chaos Theory - Transition has certainly created itself into one kind of Attractor in the increasingly Chaotic system (NB Chaos is Good at this time - consider how depressing things would look if everything was locked down into dreary stability, as it has been for centuries until the exponential of change really got a grip just recently).
  3.  
    Positive action ?
    Even just positive thinking and positive interaction, refusing to allow oneself to slip
    into the banality of what i'd call the 'Eastenders (soap opera) wannabe syndrome.
    Not a follower myself , but this fellow seems pretty chipper most the time, check out the pixs http://www.facebook.com/#!/DalaiLama

    "A compassionate attitude helps you communicate more easily with your fellow human beings. As a result, you make more genuine friends and the atmosphere around you is more positive, which gives you greater inner strength. This inner strength helps you spontaneously concern yourself with others, instead of thinking only about yourself"
    "If each of us can learn to relate to each other more out of compassion, with a sense of connection to each other and a deep recognition of our common humanity, and more important, to teach this to our children, I believe that this can go a long way in reducing many of the conflicts and problems that we see today."
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    I'd totally go with your opening para there - call it Infectiousness, as you don't have to argue and convert anybody, just let them catch it in their own time. In fact that's the only way that's worked, ever.
  4.  
    Yes, i concur old boy ,:thumbup:
    Subtle infectious positive exemplar
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    Tom
    Bear in mind that Totnes is a very well regimented TT movement with a strong leader, Penwith group is quite different.
    Penzance has a Costa's, Totnes has small independent coffee shops harking back to the 70's. The 70's was when I stopped drinking instant brown mix.
    Oh and do you know what Chaos Theories is about?

    As for a response to the title thread, urban deprivation I think.

    Damon
    Was the Police abseiling for an episode of the Bill :cool:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 29th 2012
     
    Posted By: jamesingramYes, i concur old boy ,:thumbup:" alt=":thumbup:" src="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/happy/thumbup.gif" >
    Good man
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeMay 30th 2012 edited
     
    ST: no, in that instance it was all real. We also had that or a neighbouring tower block catch on fire of which I have rather closer footage than I'd like, from my windows...

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 30th 2012
     
    I know when I worked around the corner from you they were always reluctant to employ people that lived on that estate. Still there was always a soggy sofa to sit on when I went past :wink:
   
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