Perhaps worth a word to your mate the Minister, Damon.

Posted By: DamonHDPS. Sorry if this thread hijack is too far: we can start another...

Have we started another?

If not here are some of my thoughts about integrating PV into the grid.

As we all know, at about 6-7AM the demand starts to rise, peaking between 9-10AM, it settles down a bit until about 4-5PM, sometimes rising a bit after and sometimes gradually settling down to the night time base.

So if we want to integrate PV we either have to incorporate more East facing (but only really useful during March to October), and put a bit of West facing in (again only useful during March to to October).
Loads of South facing to displace FF generation during the day.
One way to pay for it would be to either pay for MWhs delivered storage, any sort as long as it is electricity, inefficiency then come down the operator of the storage plant. Another would be to have a fixed price that varies during the day, so high at peak demand times, lower during the day.
Or we could just open up the market and allow anyone to sell what they think they can supply at the best price they can get, but accepting a fine if they do not supply.
The two biggest problems are over and under supply, matching supply is never really a problem.

If the PV industry and the National Grid were to take PV seriously then any incentives would be targeted at the large scale 'professional' generators, not at the domestic level.
Much easier to get 20 GW installed with 5 to 10 MW systems (2000 to 4000 'farms') than 10 million, 2kW domestic systems of varying quality.

Posted By: DamonHDIt might even persuade some households to move their evening peak: we already have moved most or all of ours I think.

How do you manage that? Our evening peak is caused by parents flopping down and switching on TVs and the like after the kids go to bed. We'd need storage or some bigmungous west-facing PV to make much of an impact on that.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Seret</cite>Our evening peak is caused by parents flopping down and switching on TVs</blockquote>
What an unusual household, most houses have them on 24/7 theses days. What is the ROI on a 42 incher. Is use proportional to the size? (I don't have a TV).

I think most of the evening use is caused by cooking/washing and those people with electric cars (all 900 of them ).

I try to set the washing machine for between 2 and 3 AM, this seems to be a consistently low carbon generation time.

Posted By: SteamyTea
I try to set the washing machine for between 2 and 3 AM, this seems to be a consistently low carbon generation time.

Cold wash during the day when PV is available then onto the line to dry in summer for me. Reckon it vary rarely has to import to get washing done in the summer. Winter is a different story as we use the dryer.

We wash dishes by hand, and we do use a slow cooker a reasonable amount, so it doesn't sound like we've got a lot of scope for cutting our evening use unless there's anyone else with cunning ideas?

Posted By: DamonHD
(Note: just "not importing" is not the same as eliminating a load of course once you're microgenerating, since you're not allowing export of energy to avoid generation and flows elsewhere on the grid.)

Of course, but if it's an essential load (those dirty clothes aren't going to wash themselves) then it's a no-brainer to make hay while the sun shines.

Importing is bad. Did you know you actually have to PAY for that stuff!

My main focus lately has been on reducing base load overnight. Reckon I've managed to shave about 40W off for 8 hours, which will do nicely.

Posted By: DamonHDArguably the carbon footprint is lower if you do it at when grid intensity is lowest, usually in the wee hours. That's why we usually do it then. But lots of people look at me blankly when I point out that minimising footprint is not always the same as minimising bills with microgeneration; here is one example.

Rgds

Damon

That's to be expected though, I think you'd admit that valuing carbon over money is an unusual viewpoint. If you give people the choice between a significant cost saving and a small (or at least difficult to quantify) carbon saving I think I know which side most people will come down on. The idea of viewing their export as an asset would be alien to most people, most see it as a lost opportunity, and the financial structure of the FIT rewards that viewpoint.

On top of that I think few people would even be aware that the grid carbon intensity changes during the day.

Do you not think a fluctuating rate would baffle people? I think anything more complex than Economy 7 would leave a lot of people struggling to decide whether to consume now or later. Make it too hard and people will start to opt out.

I would favour a simpler approach: I think just fitting displays showing import/export and switching around the values of FIT and export rate would have much the same effect for domestic PV.

Seret: people deal with astonishing complexity in some of EDF's French retail schemes, for example, and US utility users also seem to cope with ToD rates. And in any case that's what a price signal is *for*: to get people to think about and where possible move (or cut) their consumption. The relationship doesn't have to be in lockstep with wholesale rates in the energy exchange with per-millisecond updates, but can be smoothed and constrained while remaining useful.

Rgds

Damon

Sure it's yours?

Posted By: DamonHDAnd in any case that's what a price signal is *for*: to get people to think about and where possible move (or cut) their consumption.

It'd be interesting to see how effective it was if implemented well.

Personally I think the process would show it's best results when automated. With µgen, a house full of networked appliances and some storage on-site (even if just EV) all managed from a single point you could optimise the nuts off it.

Effectively its a process control issue, and humans suck at that. Design them out of the loop.

Controlling consumption is difficult though. I don't think anyone's really cracked that one. Like you say, it requires changing attitudes and behaviour.

Tbh, I think the only way to control the public's behaviour en masse is through their wallets. It would be nice if everybody drove at the speed limit out of concern for the safety of other people on the roads (if not their own), but the only really effective way to slow them down is to plant a speed camera and sting them for speeding.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Seret</cite>Controlling consumption is difficult though. I don't think anyone's really cracked that one. Like you say, it requires changing attitudes and behaviour.

Tbh, I think the only way to control the public's behaviour en masse is through their wallets. It would be nice if everybody drove at the speed limit out of concern for the safety of other people on the roads (if not their own), but the only really effective way to slow them down is to plant a speed camera and sting them for speeding.</blockquote>

I agree wholeheartedly. A few zealots will voluntarily change their behaviour based on careful reasoning, but for the majority of the population it will be cost that drives them to change and reduce consumption. Our biggest problem is that energy is far too cheap, which in economic terms means it's far too readily available (assuming that the normal rules of supply, demand and price apply).

Posted By: jms452Ed Davies:
'Doesn't necessarily have to be rotten but, unless the floor is already insulated, I'd suggest that suspended is a big plus'

Agree - Rotten just hopefully saves you some cash, avoids ripping out a totally good floor and feature suspended floors with limited access are a really a pain!

Luckily our house was council refurbished 30 years ago and they had the foresight to put in 100mm EPS under the floor slab - proving it to energy assessors is a different matter though!

back on topic

when looking at possible houses I (prob even my wife) often have been more excited about a project the worst the state it is in

Grade II listed? You don't want it, unless you have very deep pockets. South facing roof is worth nothing to you if you can't put solar on it. My mother owns a georgian house and even though the roof design (balustrade and flat 'guttering' area in front of the pitched roof) means there is space to put solar on it that is not visible from the street, she is not allowed.