Green Building Forum - What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

Bowman — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:36:27 +0000

Okay, a couple of other threads have touched on this, but it would be very interesting hear what peoples views are on what really should be done and could be done, and importantly who's going to get things done in making the UK housing stock, new and old sustainable.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

guyc — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:24:28 +0000

I see the ultimate goal has to be low energy consumption homes (sourced from renewables) and built using sustainable cradle-to-grave materials.

I would think the biggest environmental issues to tackle first would be energy consumption. During a buildings lifetime this far outweighs the embodied energy of the building materials. For new buildings this can be easily implemented by building regulations and planning permissions prioritised for low-energy homes. The difficulty comes with old homes.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

jon — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:55:49 +0000

What do you mean by 'planning permissions prioritised' guy?

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

skywalker — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:05:13 +0000

My main interest (as I and most other people in the country live in them) is the existing stock. My belief is that rather than go for gold (or passivhaus) level renovation (which incedentally is either very hard/expensive or impossible/prohibitively costly) we still need to start very simply.

1.Most houses still have very poor loft insulation, it would be simple to make this mandatory on sale/purchase. So where structurally possible the part L minimum should be applied accross the board. where not structurally possible the best next level should be applied. As a footnote most insulation (as noted many times in these discusions) in installed very, very badly - I remain flabbergasted at the houses near me, built since part L came into forc, where the recent snow was melting off the roofs and as they were being built the cellotex used as cavity insulation had 20-40mm gaps between panels with sawn remnants shoved in round doors & windows.

2. Solar water. Again this should be just installed on all properties with roofs with suitable aspects using simple retrofit technology to existing water cylinders or funkier versions for those that wanted top pay for it.

Both the above should be assisted with small grants ( say Â£100 - 250 for 'normal' loft insulation and Â£300+ for solar both with options for a bit more grant where neccesary) which are readily available properly monitored and administered by goverment funded local officials (new member(s) of staff in each building inspector team until completed).

Once these two projects have been completed or are substantially underway THEN we get on with underfloor insulation/airtightness/ground source heat pumps etc etc.

Whilst neither of the above will satisfy the deep green/straw baler (myself included) they are achievable and practical and will begin a process of really sorting out the basics.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

Niggle — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:39:38 +0000

Skywalker, do you know how much of our national household energy deficit would be remedied by your very simple and practical approach? Is it Pareto-like: say 80% of target reached by simple means leaving 20% for more technical/expensive solutions.

Or is the real virtue of starting simple to get our supine majority into the energy-cost habit, but there first level improvements will not impact the national deficit as such?

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

skywalker — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:18:07 +0000

Hello Niggle

Simple answer to you first question is I have no accurate idea how much of the household energy deficit would be remedied. Very hard to calculate given the differing levels of insulation (from none/not effective to nearly part L). My contention is that we have to start by getting the simple/easy things right at a national scale before we get too worked up about more sexy stuff. Using the standard figures often cited (up to 30% heat lost through uninsulated roof/up to 60% saving in DHW energy cost with solar) one could assume that around 20% of the average houses CO2 budget could be cut (could be wildy off but happy to be shot down by someone with a calculator & time).

Your second point is actually rather more difficult. The main problem with energy savings (at least at a household level) is that the savings made on energy tend to be spent on other things (which in general cost energy) resulting in either no or a diminished overall reduction in CO2/energy use. I am actually relying on increased energy cost to get the majority into the energy-cost habit as I do not think anything else will work as efficiently as people having to pay more to heat and light their homes to reducing energy usage. I suspect also that taxes would need to be raised to pay for the programme (might as well get this one out early in the thread!) which may mitigate for the 'more cash for stuff' syndrome.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

Bowman — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:10:03 +0000

Thanks for the replies,

I understand your comments, but that's the technical stuff, which by comparison to the cultural change required is relatively simple (IMHO). I think what concerns me is the lack of understanding of the average householder, and probably professionals too (present company excepted of course), but also the Government response to just add more layers of bureaucracy as a solution. I don't see anyone addressing the fundamentals. In my opinion these are a really a general lack of awareness among most householders and professionals as to what sustainability means and why it is important, once people get their heads round these ideas, once people understand, the Government needs to provide the tools to make informed decisions really easy, and then they need to back this up with sensible incentives. Only then can Joe Average be reasonably expected to follow the latest Regs and targets (and if our Government is good at anything its setting regulations and targets).

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

skywalker — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:27:19 +0000

I think to do the relatively simple things first is the best idea. Cultural change takes a very long time and needs strong drivers like massive increase in fuel prices (in this instance).

The problem with 'sustainability' that it has become an overused weasel word applied to almost anything to make it sound like a good idea/give it a current edge. In fact there is a general lack of concensus as to what is or isn't 'sustainable' its relationship to 'desirable' and 'necessary' in political terms. In any case I suspect that there is sustainabilty fatigue and what is needed is to stop talking and just get on with it.

In terms of this thread title on this forum the first thing that comes to mind (other than removing land from agriculture/wildlife) when one thinks of the impact of housing is the energy used to build, heat and light them. My own personal interest is the state of the existing stock of housing (and by this I mean most that is being built now and for the next few years - cos if anything better than 10% of them actually meet part L in a real life test I'll eat my gardening trousers) and getting it into better order.

House builders (generally) are busineses, they don't care about houses they care about the bottom line. They will not and actually can not justyfy anything which negatively affects that bottom line unless they are forced to by outside influences. I suspect you would find that many house builders are very much aware of lower carbon/environmental impact practices and features, they are also aware of how much more they cost. The general public (me and you included) do not generally make properly informed decisions (even when we think we do we are are at the mercy of the quality of the information available) and we certainly do not follow regulations. We generally have to be me made to do things (or led by the nose) only a few have the conviction to do things of their own accord.

Goverments are supposed to be good at setting regulations and targets, it is their job, wether they are good regulations and targets is another matter entirely.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

jon — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:10:06 +0000

The danger may be that sustainability will come to have the same sort of meaning as affordable

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

skywalker — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:59:50 +0000

It is after all just a word (a noun in fact) which can be justifiably applied to many things.

s.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

Chris Wardle — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:38:39 +0000

One issue that applies to improvement of the existing stock is that of the correct incentives being in place. For example, as a landlord, I have no financial incentive to invest to gain energy savings because I don't pay the bill. Likewise, if you are an owner occupier and you think you might be moving in a couple of years (and people move on average every 7 years I think these days), you aren't going to invest in solar hot water for instance, because you wont see a pay back.

HMG can legislate though things like EPCs to try and tackle this but it isn't going to solve the problem and it won't be popular if people are foced to do things that aren't in there financial interests. I think there must be a way to radically change the whole system for contracting to supply energy to buildings.

If you bought heating and hot water as a long term contracted service from an energy company and let them decide how best to supply it, e.g. through energy efficiency measures or new installations of renewables, boilers etc, the incentives would be there for them to invest to reduce consumption and they would reap the benefits of that investment over a number of years. At the moment energy suppliers make more money the more fuel you use. They even give you a cheaper rate if you are a large consumer. This is giving perverse incentives to all players in the market.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

tony — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 10:48:55 +0000

No one thing to do both cost saving, energy saving and for comfort is to do draft proofing. Next air leakage sealing, third insulate!

Cavity walls cool houses as they are drafty

Suspended wooden floors cool houses as the ventilation under them is from outside.

Suspended concrete floors do the same.

Wooden joisted first floors cool both the ground floor ceiling and the first floor boards as the void is drafty from outside.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

skywalker — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 11:15:10 +0000

An interseting twist Chris

I'm not sure that making the producer reponsible for the amount of energy used by the consumer (in a punitive sense) will be that popular either. Would you sign up to a long term contract where the only way you stand to make a profit is to invest in other peoples property and rely on good stewardship of your product by disinterested third parties.

It think the answer is to make it in peoples financial interests (not popular - but neither will energy shortages be). Extra taxes on high carbon energy sources (sorts out the supplier), extra council tax on high CO2 properties (capped to reflect what is sesibly achievable in terms of the property). Us the funds derived to improve insulation/add solar/move from predominantly incandescentto other lighting technologies. Still needs extra investment, more tax, but how else is it ever going to happen. I do not believe that any amount of awareness raising wil achieve what is needed anything like quickly enough.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

guyc — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 14:04:15 +0000

The problem is even the easiest improvements are the hard to persuade people to act on. Things can make pure economic sense and still not get done. For example my local council offers a Â£100 grant (via British Gas) for cavity wall insulation taking the typical price down to Â£150. I would imagine this would payback in 2 years, and nobody I have mentioned this to is interested. Business would go crazy for Returns on Investment at this amount.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

jamesingram — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 15:54:31 +0000

Most (95%)people I speak to and work for give nothing more than lip service to the ideas of sustainablitly, lot of good intentions
There happy to pay Â£10000 for a fancy bathroom suite , but suggest a dual coil cylinder and a solar HW for a couple of grand, whilst there upgrading there HW tank
and they cant afford it.
Its right to push the cheap effective measures, as these are what the public go for, some anyway.

Perhap legistration forcing goverment/councils/housing associations to upgraded there stock is a start
I believe there maybe potential of a private members bill suggesting something similiar
My local council was offering private landlords free loft/cavity insulation, shame they didnt offer it to the rest of us, it seemed a bit rum to me
People to seem to like the 'fancy eco techonology'
I looked at a job the other day with a Â£4000 solar hotwater panel fitted 5 years ago and only 100mm of loft insulation
I'm glad the goverment added the 'up to part L' requirement for LCB program grants

More carrot less stick

How about a goverment back loan scheme (like student loans) for energy saving improvement
low interest rate loans would make the dearer technologies make more sense in pay back time
using the savings in bills to repay the loans and see a small profit
Large scale installation, whole housing estates, to bring the cost down
Tax incentives have got to be the way forward for commercial and private freeholders.

The CATs zerocarbonbritian is a good strategy to loby your MP for http://www.zerocarbonbritain.com/

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

Bluemoon — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 20:50:29 +0000

Taxation seems like the way to start the improvements. Draw up a list of what is feasible with any particular building type. Levy a variable VAT rate on fuel, depending on the grade of energy efficiency. As nobody likes paying tax, it might well kick-start the general improvements in CO2 performance.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

chuckey — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:20:21 +0000

As the goverment gives away Â£ 100 pounds to every one over 60 as a winter fuel payment, how about them using part of this to finance an inspection
of/and upgrade to the loft insulation?
Frank

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

Mike George — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:48:43 +0000

Posted By: jamesingram
Perhap legistration forcing goverment/councils/housing associations to upgraded there stock is a start

Just to say that the Welsh Assembley has done exactly this via the introduction of the Welsh Quality Housing Standard.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

tony — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 21:51:53 +0000

Are they offering grants/funding and has this new directive got any teeth?

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

Mike George — Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:07:24 +0000

The Standard is here http://new.wales.gov.uk/desh/publications/housing/whqslaguide/guide?lang=en and although it was implemented before the introduction of Part L1b it is that document which now enforces the energy efficiency upgrades.

There has been a lot of money made available to carry out projects via envelope schemes such as these http://fat.glam.ac.uk/cerea/projects/ The Hendreforgan scheme involved external insulation, new windows, boilers, loft insulation etc.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

Jeff Norton (NZ) — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 04:28:20 +0000

What about all taxes, line charges, connection charges bundled up together in every kwh/unit of energy?

If it was 75p/kwh the return on investment for all energy efficient measures would be substantially improved for all users. It might then be worth putting a hot water solar panel on your rental flat !

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

biffvernon — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 08:55:54 +0000

Just go for Tradable Energy Quotas (TEQs)
http://www.teqs.net/

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

tony — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 09:50:21 +0000

But then the rich can literally afford to waste energy.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

skywalker — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 10:45:28 +0000

Currently you have to be rich to green up your old house.

Tony in order to follow the advice you regularly supply on this forum on my house I would need to spend over Â£50 k(doing nearly all the work myself - at least double it for using traders):

1. Tear house apart internally in order to draught proof/insulate.
2. insulate aoutside walls to a minimum of 100mm Kingspan down to 1m below ground level (using some as yet undisclosed means to deal with the DPC) render etc.
3. Replace roof (to allow for super insulation and to provide extra overhang for work in 2.
4. Replace all widows in order to insulate all widow reveals etc.
5. re finish internally (plaster walls, ceilings, replace floors)
6. Decorate.

I'm not saying your advice is bad at all, just flippin' expensive.

The rich will always be anle to afford to do more things. The problem with the TEQ system is that it will not address those who cannot afford to use less energy.

S.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

guyc — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 10:50:39 +0000

I think if you want mass improvements then sticks (as opposed to carrots) may have better effects.

If a realistic and fair 'High Energy User' tax was charged to high use households, then people may take action. The aim to avoid the tax would be a more concrete saving than being told they will get reduced energy bills.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

skywalker — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:06:30 +0000

I agree sticks work way better than carrots at a gross scale, but you have to be sure there is something of a level playing field & not legislate people into fuel poverty (however green the intention).

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

biffvernon — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 12:16:55 +0000

Posted By: skywalkerThe rich will always be anle to afford to do more things. The problem with the TEQ system is that it will not address those who cannot afford to use less energy.

Actually, that's just the problem that is addressed. That's the beauty of TEQs.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

jamesingram — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:00:27 +0000

I be happy to sell my surplus TEQ to the rich, it means they can fund my carbon reducting actions

As long the set quotas are annually reduced across the board ( 5% per/y as suggest in ZCB) the end result
will be a year on year deduction ,with the wealthy funding the plebs.
Think I could be paid to grow my own veg.

Yes, only the wealthy will be able to afford luxury polluting items , but isnt that the case already
Power down , then power up with renewables as in ZCB

skywalker/guyc , I think my carrot is your stick , it s just a case of marketing
Give people tax benefit for positve action , take tax from those who act negatively

Lots of people I talk to feel constantly dictated to by the state and this is creating a backlash against
what to us may seem like commonsense positive action on climate change
I guess the goverment need to sell the benefits, rather than just seem to be adding another tax
Semantics , cup half full and all that stuff.

cheers Jim

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

skywalker — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 13:43:47 +0000

Biff

Ok, read it properly this time! I like the concept - can it happen quickly enough

James

Inevitably one mans stick is another mans carrot. My gut feeling is sod which way we market it - we need to do something simple and positive that involves direct intervention very very soon.

S.

What needs to be done to make homes sustainable?

jamesingram — Sun, 02 Dec 2007 14:05:38 +0000

Amen brother