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General: solid fuel heating

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorclovercott
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2012
     
    I have seen many useful threads regarding solid fuel boilers but I would like advice on a few aspects on my old thick walled irish farmhouse I am renovating,I an using a trianco TRG60 solid fuel boiler as no gas available and oil too expensive,
    1) do I need a special immersion tank to make the thermosyphon work properly for the hot water?
    2) I plan on combining two underfloor heating syatems ie the old part of the house on one manifold and the new part on the second manifold, I also have an upstairs room which will need a radiator, will I need a buffer tank and can I loop the pipes like a normal central heating system where I treat each underfloor system as a radiator with feed and return off the main loop? Thanks for your comments
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2012
     
    1. - no; 2) and yes you can treat each ufh manifold as if it were a rad and run the whole system from a thermal store or buffer tank.

    3. dont forget to insulate as much as possible wherever you can -- EWI?
    • CommentAuthorclovercott
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2012
     
    Thanks for the response, just one question regarding choice of pipe for the CH. Thinking of using copper upto the heat store then plastic for the heating loops, any issues with this? thanks
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2012
     
    presumably the heat store could boil if everything went pear shaped at once?
  5.  
    I had a trianco TRG60 some 30+ years ago, V. good boiler but worked best with anthracite grains - can you still get this type or coal? I found the boiler very controllable, if you took power away from the fan the thing actually went out fairly quickly and there was never any over heating in a power cut (DHW was on gravity) the system was skirting rads on plastic micro bore with the manifolds about 3 feet from the boiler and gravity DHW. You could tell the quality of the anthracite by the combustion residue. Good quality coal anthracite produced clinker, poor quality -ash.

    The system did not have a buffer tank and IMO you could get away without one especially if you have a separate DHW tank. The immersion tank does not need to be 'special' but you can not use a tank with a retrofit coil placed in the electric immersion boss at the top of the tank if you want to use gravity.
    • CommentAuthorclovercott
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2012
     
    Thanks for the advice, I would like to do away with the cost of a heatstore/buffer tank but may have read somewhere that underfloor heating works best with the water pressurised. I can see the anthracite grains for sale when I googled it but obtaining them in Ireland may be a different story!
  7.  
    Clovercott,

    Am I right in asssuming that timber is in short supply? Have you priced up bought-in timber (even if it has to be delivered a fair distance) compared with anthracite?

    (You said: ''I am using a trianco TRG60 solid fuel boiler as no gas available and oil too expensive,'' - Is that' ''using'' or ''am going to use''? - Have you bought it yet?)
    • CommentAuthorclovercott
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2012
     
    Have bought a second hand boiler in good condition but it is meant to burn anthracite which is poured into a hopper then allegedly burns for most of the day with that load, if it could burn wood I would be delighted. I mentioned earlier the possible requirement for a special immersion tank because I read a thread on another site where the tank had sprung a leak , they brought in a plumber who installed another tank which the failed to therosyphon, wondered if I was missing anything.
  9.  
    You could use pelleted torrified wood as a direct substitute for your anthracite grains but I dont know of a supplier in Ireland.
  10.  
    Posted By: clovercottI would like to do away with the cost of a heatstore/buffer tank but may have read somewhere that underfloor heating works best with the water pressurised.

    Pressurised or open vented has nothing to do with the use of a heat store/buffer tank. A system with or without a buffer tank can be either pressureised or open.

    Posted By: clovercottHave bought a second hand boiler in good condition but it is meant to burn anthracite which is poured into a hopper then allegedly burns for most of the day with that load,

    From my experience it will - if you use good grade anthracite.

    Posted By: clovercottI read a thread on another site where the tank had sprung a leak , they brought in a plumber who installed another tank which the failed to therosyphon

    Hmmm wrong tank or wrong plumber - or both.

    I found the TRG60 a v. good boiler but dependent on the right type of fuel. When the Welsh (i think) anthracite was no longer available and it was imported from Poland the quality went down and this was noticeable in the boiler performance. As I recall there was a plate in the hopper that could be raised to allow larger than grains to be used (I thnk beans was the next size up) but larger fuel pieces or lower quality meant more frequent loading and sometimes problems with the burning and the fire base clogging with ash due to the lack of formation of clinker which was easier for the boiler's mechanism to cope with. Is there a chance the boiler was sold because of difficulties of getting good fuel?
  11.  
    Hi,
    This is purely anecdotal so it’s not gospel but I’m led to believe cylinder design can make a difference.
    With a move to condensing boilers (lower primary exit temp) and the need for faster heat up times more coil has been added to DHW cylinders which mean greater length which means smaller pitch i.e. less slope. Previously the DHW cylinder coil had quite an open pitch which allowed more of an upward thermo-siphon flow. The more compressed coils have little slope, additionally there is an expectation from manufacturers for pumped systems so other than worrying about trapped air the shape of the coil doesn’t matter too much.
    This is just for Domestic Hot Water so the primary flow is inside the coil.

    As you mentioned pumped heat distribution then this could simply be pumped in the opposite direction. i.e. downwards away from up to the cyclinder when the cylinder was satisfied (hot). This is how it's done with solid fuel Rayburns. Cylinder stat usually turns pump on (which combines with boiler ignition) to heat the cylinder, this is the reverse, in this case when the cylinder is cold the stat is open (pump off) so other way round, then when by thermo-siphon the cylinder is hot the stat closes (say 65 deg), pump comes on and distributes to heat system (what ever that might be).
    The only real problem is that sometimes the residual heat in the boiler causes the cylinder to slowly rise overnight and become hot enough say at 3am; the pump comes on and distributes increasingly tepid water round. So some form of upper limit stat set to say 85deg would need to be wired in parallel with a time clock to hold off distributing during the night even if the cylinder stat says it’s satisfied (at 65 deg).

    You’ll need to find an old fashioned heating engineer.

    Cheers

    Mike up North
    • CommentAuthorclovercott
    • CommentTimeJun 26th 2012
     
    Thanks Mike , I note your comments but the rad in the upstairs room may be nearly as high as the cold filling/overflow tank so I will need to put a buffer tank in on the heating circuit and either have a stat on that which triggers the CH pump as long as I keep this buffer tank small or a pipe stat from the boiler, As the hot water comes off the other side of the boiler that hopefully will continue to thermosyphon, I would not like waiting for the hot water tank to get hot before i can heat the house, that can carry on on the background.I think the output of this boiler at 17.6kw is ample particularly as the bulk of the heating is underfloor requiring lower temps. (they have mixing valves) and the living room also has a Dunsley mulifuel stove.
    However I am looking now at four pumps, one for each of the underfloor manifolds, one to warm the buffer tank and another to run the heating circuit!

    On the choice of fuel its going to be trial and error until I can find a good supplier,I can raise or lower the filling flap to suit the size , the boiler was using grains and when I picked it up I was allowed to empty the coal store so have over half a ton to start me off.

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