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    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2012
     
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: chriskempMVHR needs to run 24/7 to comply with building regulations - especially in buildings <3m3 airtightness.
    Where in the building regs does it say that? I don't believe I've ever seen it.
    Well the Scottish Regs refer to 'continuous' rates of ventilation (6.6.3). My assumption is therefore that they should be on 24/7. I see little point switching it off to the extent the bathroom windows will be fixed panes.
    • CommentAuthorchriskemp
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2012
     
    system 3 and 4 are "continuous mechanical ventilation systems" - in order to provide "adequate means of ventilation" as laid down in ADF.
    The only continuous system which does switch of is PIV (to prevent overheating of a home due to the solar gain within a loftspace).

    The running costs are so negligible its not worth turning off....

    Besides, you will generate smells and moisture all year round which needs extracting/removing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2012 edited
     
    I really don't see why you'd want to waste several kg of CO2 and several £ rather than simply open windows if you have the option.

    EST/DEFRA/DECC's latest report claims £10s per year per household being wasted by appliances left pointlessly on standby or whatever: this would be adding to that shameful total.

    So it seems there may be an error in installing a fixed window unless no alternative is reasonably possible: it condemns you to dependency and wastage even in completely benign weather.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2012
     
    I agree with Damon.

    Unless:

    A member of the household suffers from hay fever, or
    The property is on a busy road where the noise would be Intolerable.

    For a 200 m2 property with an EST 'best practice' SFC of 1.0 W/l/s operating at the minimum of 0.3 l/s/m2, the consumption is 60 Watts continuous. Would you leave a 60 W light bulb running continuously for 4 to 6 months?

    Also, the filters will require more frequent changes.
    • CommentAuthorchriskemp
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2012
     
    I am merely advising of ADF.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2012
     
    GaryB: true, but that I hope is covered by "unless no alternative is reasonably possible" though even then I'd still think about other/future users of the house and have an openable window for them even if I did not open it myself.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2012
     
    Posted By: DamonHDSo it seems there may be an error in installing a fixed window unless no alternative is reasonably possible: it condemns you to dependency and wastage even in completely benign weather.
    Well this year the heating has been on for most of the summer so hardly benign :-(
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2012
     
    Well, more benign then Siberia! B^>

    And our heating went off earlier than usual this year, with some support from MHRV on chilly nights, so a definitely energy saver when used carefully in what passes for a British spring/summer...

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2012
     
    Posted By: chriskempsystem 3 and 4 are "continuous mechanical ventilation systems" - in order to provide "adequate means of ventilation" as laid down in ADF.

    (1) Those are allowable solutions, not requirements. They don't prevent some other solution. There is nothing mandatory about them.
    (2) Both systems 3 & 4 suggest opening windows in summer. There isn't a lot of point in running the fans whilst the windows are open in most circumstances.
    • CommentAuthorchriskemp
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2012
     
    I never said they were mandatory and never said they replace openable windows.
    In fact you are unlikely to get sufficient airflow from any system to give the purge rate provided by an openable window. This causes design issues on noisy sites under PPG24.

    The query was whether you should turn off mvhr. Ive tried to offer my knowledge and experience for the reader of this thread looking for factual guidance, esp for new build compliance.
    Of course you can do what you like. The regs do state that mvhr is designed to provide continuous mechanical ventilation.
    If you have internal wetrooms you dont have the option to open a window so mech vent would be required if you wished to remove smells and or moisture.
    You will have to declare to BC which system you intend to employ, how you then use it is upto the owner/user.....
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    I leave our MVHR on low even when we're opening windows in the expectation (hope!) that it will stop nasty things growing in the ductwork. Does anyone else think it's worthwhile?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    That may be a good reason not to have ducts, as Viking has often said.

    My single-room MHRV should also be immune providing I wash/decon the extractable bit as per the instructions, so I have turned it off entirely for now.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    Posted By: chriskempI never said they were mandatory and never said they replace openable windows.

    You said:
    MVHR needs to run 24/7 to comply with building regulations

    And in answer to my request for the source you quoted systems 3 & 4. In order for them to support your original statement, they would have to be mandatory. The fact that they are not means that they do not support your original statement.

    The regs do state that mvhr is designed to provide continuous mechanical ventilation.

    You're confusing regulations with advice again. The Regulations are on pages 4 & 5. The General Advice section of the Approved Document mentions continuous, but that is not part of the Regulations. In any case, I believe it uses the word continuous in the sense of 'normally on' to contrast it with intermittent ventilation that is 'normally off'. I don't believe there's any implication, even in the advice let alone the regulation, that an MVHR system must be operated year-round. The only obligations for mechanical ventilation in the regulations relate to commissioning and testing. The Limitation set out in para 2.2 means that there could be no requirement for year-round operation unless it was truly necessary.
    • CommentAuthorchriskemp
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012 edited
     
    Always its all down to interpretation.
    System 3 and 4 (which are options for you to provide adequate means of ventilation) are called continuous mechanical ventilations systems (with or without heat recovery).

    My dictionary states that "continuous" means: without interruption, forming a series with no exceptions or reversals.

    Its down to the user to use how they feel best. As you can lead a horse (or other creatures of a similar nature) to water and all that.

    I cant find my copy just now of ADF due to now sharing my office with a baby en-route. However, there are various tables and sections on "trickle" rates based on footprint. and boost rates based on nos of wetrooms.
    Again , my interpretation and hundreds of architects, consultants and developers I dealt with interpret this as a continuous background rate and commission accordingly (allowing for infiltration or not as the case maybe).
    (you now must produce a commissioning certificate, and ideally show the installer is "competent" via a BPEC course).
    If the tenant then turns off the unit the subby, the developer, the architect is "covered" as they have offered a compliant ventilation system - as signed off by building control.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    One of the guys from Parity Projects said that nearly all (all?) of the multi room heat recovery systems which they've fitted ended up getting turned off by the occupants because of noise-nuisance.

    Personally I favour a ventilation system which has an intelligent control system, which controls the ventilation speed sufficiently to ensure:

    CO2 below 1000ppm (or whatever).

    Humidity levels below that which will cause potentially problematic condensation on cold building elements (with a reasonable default for thermal-bridgyness of the building)


    And above-all simple, and easy-to-use controls i.e. an "it feels stuffy" button, and a "there's condensation on the windows" button, and perhaps also an "it's too noisy" button.

    This would also solve the problem of openable windows - since if you open the windows in summer (or even just go out), the ventilation system should switch to minimum speed, or even just turn off entirely.

    The only difference between this and your current bog-standard MVHR systems is some decent control software, and a few sensors...
    • CommentAuthornbwilding
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    Posted By: TimSmallOne of the guys from Parity Projects said that nearly all (all?) of the multi room heat recovery systems which they've fitted ended up getting turned off by the occupants because of noise-nuisance.


    Probably means they don't install them very well then! Some of the issues here are discussed in the attached document. Incidently the author of that document fitted our system and there is certainly no noise nuisance.
    • CommentAuthorchriskemp
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    The  importance  of  providing  correct  information  on  the  system  to  the  occupants  
    Our  members  have  experienced  units  having  been  switched  off  by  the  occupants.  The  main  reasons  
    for  them  doing  so  are  due  to  their  lack  of  understanding  of  how  the  system  is  supposed  to  work  
    continuously,  the  benefits  of  it  doing  so  and  their  perception  that  a  system  that  consumes  electricity  
    continuously  must  be  costing  them  a  lot  of  money.  This  situation  often  coincides  with  occupants  not  
    having  been  left  with  appropriate  user  information  and  instructions.  
    When  proper  information  and  instructions  are  left  with  occupants  and/or  time  is  taken  to  explain  
    the  workings  of  the  system  with  them,  there  is  little  chance  of  the  system  being  switched  off.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012 edited
     
    Is the noise issue similar to the wind turbine noise issue, if you like/benefit what it is doing for you it is not a problem. Flip side being that if you do not benefit/care then it is a nuisance. Within sensible limits mind.
    • CommentAuthorchriskemp
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    from experience , certain developers will use the cheapest unit which on paper only just meets the vent rates, then when onsite and install varies the unit often is running balls-out.

    Over sizing a unit will help reduce noise break out.

    also some units are metal with minimum levels of insulation - some are "carved" out of a huge lump of EPS which has inherent noise reduction. You get what you paid for.

    Most likely the noise is coming from the valves as opposed to break out noise from the box (usually in the loft anyways).
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    It struck me that even trickle vents can be closed so why not switch off your MVHR if you plan to open windows. Personally I favour the idea of MVHR controlled by humistats and CO2 detectors with a boost button in case you had a curry the night before:devil:that way the system runs itself as appropriatte but turns off if you leave doors and windows open in summer (not 2012).
    • CommentAuthorchriskemp
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    air quality sensors in the WC......
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: joe90 in case you had a curry the night before

    do they do a sensor that can detect such odours ?
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    I think it could be sound triggered by the initial or subsequent occupants...

    No, no, strike that thought.

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012 edited
     
    This is what I said:-
    (Unless someone knows of a pong detector?)

    Posted By: joe90 with a boost button in case you had a curry the night before:devil:" >
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    I have a fan in the loo that comes on automatically whenever someone enters, triggered by a ceiling mounted PIR sensor. It should be possible to use the same technique to switch an MVHR to boost, I'd have thought.
  1.  
    But a no1 wouldn't require a boost, where as a no2 might , so joes button would be best
    • CommentAuthorHairlocks
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: RobLThey do 200mm spigots as an option


    Where can I get the 200mm spigots, I have pinged vent-axia and a few resellers an no one has come back to me.

    I have installed using 200mm,150mm and 125mm (needed to go through I joists.) ducts so far, just need to by the unit.

    I also noticed a new mobel has its SAP approval. sentinel kinetic plus BS, but only mentioned on the SAP website and vent-axia installation manual. It looks like they have changed the fan to a move efficente motor.
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2012
     
    Hi Hairlocks-I got mine from here:
    http://www.extractorfanworld.co.uk/vent-axia-heat-recovery-ventilation-sentinel-kinetic-plus-b-1143-p.asp
    I got the extra larger spigots at the same time as the kinetic plus. It was a bit of a faff for them to get I think, but it got them the kinetic sale - hence they were keen!
    I got extra 2*200mm, and 2*180mm spigots. The 180mm ones came with a foam adapter to expand them up to 200mm. The main unit came first, then the extra spigots a few weeks later.
    • CommentAuthorchriskemp
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2012
     
    don't forget extract and supply diffusers are different in design and (internal) shape so ensure you qualify which ones you need ;-)
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