Green Building Forum - Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

tony — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 15:11:51 +0000

How much taller, 10mm, 100mm, lm, 10m or 100m will be needed to make a difference?

I don't think a meter will do it, and 10m might do it for you but not for the neighbours across the road.

Don't settle out of court!

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 16:13:20 +0000

Did you have a witness (independent) at the experts visit, so that if his report differs from what he said at the time you can challenge it.

Yes we did Peter, there was myself my wife and the neighbour who has also been getting smoke in his house. Just got to wait for the report now.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 16:21:17 +0000

Posted By: tonyHow much taller, 10mm, 100mm, lm, 10m or 100m will be needed to make a difference?

I don't think a meter will do it, and 10m might do it for you but not for the neighbours across the road.

Don't settle out of court!

Now more emphasis has been put on the the topography someones neck will be on the block if they have to specify a height to get around what ever is causing the wind effects. By the way, this guy said that the hedge at the front of my garden could cause turbulence. The hedge is just above the gutter height on my bungalow. I mentioned the tall trees and he said tall trees can cause it if they are in leaf. I`m going to email him the pictures that I took last year of the trees to the left of the properties.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Peter_in_Hungary — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 17:06:00 +0000

Posted By: tonyHow much taller, 10mm, 100mm, lm, 10m or 100m will be needed to make a difference?

I don't think a meter will do it, and 10m might do it for you but not for the neighbours across the road.

Posted By: Mikeee5Now more emphasis has been put on the the topography someones neck will be on the block if they have to specify a height to get around what ever is causing the wind effects. By the way, this guy said that the hedge at the front of my garden could cause turbulence. The hedge is just above the gutter height on my bungalow. I mentioned the tall trees and he said tall trees can cause it if they are in leaf. I`m going to email him the pictures that I took last year of the trees to the left of the properties.

It will probably be a 'cook until done' exercise. I would expect 'an expert' to recommend raising the height of the chimney by Xm with the caveat that if this does not cure the problem then a further increase will be needed. But the said expert would give a height that they feel comfortable with, which would probably be 1m to 1.5m more than you or I would think necessary.

Posted By: tonyDon't settle out of court!

I think that if a reasonable offer of out of court settlement is made then you have problems if you refuse it without good cause and when it does get to court then the refusal to settle without good reason can damage your case. As always ask your solicitor if/when an offer is made.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 18:11:34 +0000

Do you think I would still qualify for the European Court Of Human Rights if I settle out of court Peter. I'm still planning on getting after the Local Authority.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Peter_in_Hungary — Sat, 21 Nov 2015 20:03:33 +0000

Posted By: Mikeee5Do you think I would still qualify for the European Court Of Human Rights if I settle out of court Peter. I'm still planning on getting after the Local Authority.

At the ECHR you can only sue the state and in your case you may have a claim because you were denied your Rights under article 6

ARTICLE 6
Right to a fair trial
1. In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law.

The state is The State, or any body given power by The State to discharge any function devolved by The State. So in this context the LA, the Environmental Office etc. count as The State. so your case would be against The State in that they failed to act in a proper timely manner in discharging their duties to prevent the statuary nuisance.

Having said that the ECHR would take into account (as far as I know) any settlement either in or out of court and if the ECHR considered that your settlement contained compensation for the length of the nuisance then the amount awarded would be appropriately adjusted. You will have to show actual loss and / or suffering as a result of The States actions or inactions.

So IMO if you get a reasonable settlement you would probably get a small compensation from the ECHR but the State and therefore the LA et al would have listed a contravention of your human rights against them and it may give them a wake up call for the next case.

When we went to the ECHR suing Hungary under Article 6.1 Hungary offered us an out of court settlement which we refused. Accepting the out of court settlement would have meant that the ECHR would have recognised a 'friendly settlement' and the case deleted. We refused as we wanted the fact of the breach of our Human Rights on record as perhaps the only way we could make any point that the situation within the State system should change. Our case went to trial and we won, we were awarded the same as was offered to us as an out of court settlement (18 months later) but had the satisfaction of seeing Hungary listed in the statistics by +1 and we know that the local officials had embarrassing questions and lots of paperwork from their management line as a result of their failings. We hope that if enough people chip away at them a difference will be made.....eventually.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 19:14:40 +0000

Great post Peter, thank you for sharing that with us. I think it may be a while yet before I get to apply to the European Court of Human Rights.

I have just received the final report from the neighbours expert. He's still not excepting my particulate readings but said I gave him a document with an equation to convert the readings to weight. He's not attempted to convert the readings!! He is blaming my hedge at the front of my property which is just slightly higher than my gutter (we live in a bungalow). Apparently that can cause the air flow to rise and then cause down draft. No mention of the high trees to the westerly elevation.

He said he didn't notice any fumes during his visit!! He gives 100 and 1 reasons why he can't accept the CO and has provided about 4 pages on the theory of combustion . In short it is a load of waffle. however the last line of his report says "The solution is to increase the terminal height ensuring it out of areas of down draft".

The next stage is a meeting with both experts and legal representatives.

Mikeee5

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Peter_in_Hungary — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:19:33 +0000

Posted By: Mikeee5He is blaming my edge at the front of my property which is just slightly higher than my gutter (we live in a bungalow). Apparently that can cause the air flow to rise and then cause down draft. No mention of the high trees to the westerly elevation.

Assuming you mean hedge for edge, if its slightly higher than the gutter can you trim it down to just below the level of the gutter and when it makes no difference invite him along for another inspection and ask him if you can send him the bill for the unnecessary work!

Posted By: Mikeee5however the last line of his report says "The solution is to increase the terminal height ensuring it out of areas of down draft".

At the next meeting you should ask him by how much the terminal height should be increased to guarantee a solution!

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

owlman — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 14:06:32 +0000

I think PiH maybe right, Mikeee, regarding the hedge.
Devil's Advocate here;
A line of attack your neighbour may use is that you are possibly contributing to the nuisance by creating a relatively "still/calm" area around your property thereby not allowing any smoke to disperse. An unbiased observer MAY conclude that you are both to blame i.e. insufficient flue height and the aforementioned high hedge, and surrounding trees.
You may need to tread carefully, and not allow them to use that argument with regard to the hedge.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

gyrogear — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 15:05:41 +0000

Posted By: owlmancontributing to the nuisance by creating a relatively "still/calm" area around your property thereby not allowing any smoke to disperse.

+1 for that !

And 1st & Foremost, make sure that said HEDGE respects any local-authority restrictions, **by-laws** etc.

(I understand there has been at least one murder in the UK re height of leylandia ??)

(In passing, it might be not uninteresting to note the etymological antecedents of the word - the OHG "hega" transmuting (in French) to "haie", which has marked connotations with "obstacle", "ouch" "hate" etc.).

"Four-armed is Forewarned" (-:

gg

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:06:14 +0000

sorry chaps, it is a Hedge. The hedge is cut professionally twice a year, it has been the same height since the installation of the stove. perhaps it could be seen as an oversight by the installer, "an assessment of nearby high objects and local wind patterns" . Part J Building regs .

In fact the judge did say it could be that there is a problem with the installation and my neighbours would have to claim from the installer!!!

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

PeterW — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 21:34:00 +0000

So your neighbour could be in for a problem if they have to increase the flue height...

PLANNING !!

Planning Permission Flue, Chimney or Soil and Vent Pipe

Fitting, altering or replacing an external flue, chimney, or soil and vent pipe is normally considered to be permitted development, not requiring planning consent, if the conditions outlined below are met:

Flues on the rear or side elevation of the building are allowed to a maximum of one metre above the highest part of the roof.
If the building is listed or in a designated area even if you enjoy permitted development rights it is advisable to check with your local planning authority before a flue is fitted.
In a designated area the flue should not be fitted on the principal or side elevation that fronts a highway.

Wonder how many objections they will get...

And make sure your solicitor is aware of this.. :-)

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

djh — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 09:39:23 +0000

Posted By: PeterWWonder how many objections they will get...

Possibly not many, if mikeee and his neighbours actually want to get the problem fixed!

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Peter_in_Hungary — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 11:35:49 +0000

Posted By: djh
Posted By: PeterWWonder how many objections they will get...

Possibly not many, if mikeee and his neighbours actually want to get the problem fixed!

Or a lot and that would stop the offending wood burner from being used

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 11:28:13 +0000

That's interesting. The chimney is in the middle of the bungalows. There is approximately 600 mm of brickwork above the ridge and the terminal extends above that, I believe the datum point is 1.2 meters above the ridge. Is there a maximum height the brickwork can be built up to? My gut feeling is the brickwork would have to be at least 2 metres to get above the wind effect. That's going to look quite odd in the middle of a pair of semi detached Bungalows!!

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Gotanewlife — Sun, 06 Dec 2015 18:18:43 +0000

2 meters won't do it is my gut instinct - talking as a man whose WBS produces smoke that sometimes grounds out within 5m of my house starting at a height of 9m. It won't look so odd if it is just a flue but it would need 3 or 4 stays.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:12:08 +0000

You are probably right. Back to thick smoke cascading down over the back door last night. Took plenty of videos, will be interesting to see what the experts suggest in Januarys meeting.

Mikeee5

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 14:35:57 +0000

January 2016 Update

Just over 1 week away for the meeting between the experts , will be interesting to see the outcome of that. We have hardly noticed the smoke since our expert told them they were using the stove incorrectly, maybe they have taken on board what the expert said and they are now operating it as per the terms listed in the DEFRA exemption !!

Some sad news. My none smokey neighbours wife has been diognised with cancer. It's not known if it has anything to do with smoke inhalation. She has to have an operation and at the moment she can't have the op because she has breathing difficulties. I was speaking to her on Monday on her driveway and the fire was lit and the smoke came down. We both commented on the fumes, they made my neighbour cough and she had to go inside away from the pungent smell.

I hope we can get a resolve soon.

Mikeee5

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Dessie — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 22:46:23 +0000

That very sad Mikee . The smoke can not have helped .

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:50:06 +0000

Had the joint meeting of experts today. The meeting went very well, the fire was lit and both experts witnessed the fumes on our property. Both experts have agreed that the chimney needs to be raised quite substantially and the flat top terminal to be removed to get away from the influences of drafts. Apparently my neighbours didn't have the 2nd flap open on the stove. From what I can gather this is for burning off the smoke.

A joint report has to be compiled now and the proposals put in writing to my neighbours. It's up to them if they chose to do the recommended work or go through with the court action. I guess they face a couple of grand in costs to carry out the work inclusive if working at height requirements. The 2nd option is a potential Â£ 60 k bill if they lose in court. Decisions decisions !!!

Mikeee5

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Peter_in_Hungary — Tue, 26 Jan 2016 20:23:48 +0000

Sounds like a no brainer for your neighbour - but who pay your costs to date?? (not to mention some compensation for your discomfort)

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 13:49:41 +0000

Howdy Peter. The agreement is that both sides pay their costs to date, I would estimate their costs to be in the region of Â£ 5000.00. Luckily my costs are covered on my house insurance and it has not cost me a penny. There is a form that will be provided by the solicitors that will keep the case open indefinitely so if they do not carryout the recommended work the case will be reopened and will carry on from where we left off. It doesn't look like we will be compensated by my neighbours unfortunately. But with a report from 2 experts confirming there is a problem it could be a good time to get after the council for their negligence. I will be writing to the European Court Of Human Rights as soon as I receive the final reports.

We are glad that we now have light at the end of the tunnel, it feels like we have had a big weight lifted from our shoulders.

Mikeee5

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

garee — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:15:54 +0000

That sounds like a result Mikeee5, I'm pleased you've got the problem recognised in court.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:55:50 +0000

Thank you Garee. Nice to see you are still following the thread.

If the solicitor words the agreement right I think we will put my neighbours in check mate ! I.e don't do the work and risk going to court with a document that says both experts have witnessed the fumes and have provided a possible solution to the problem or, do the work and if the problem persists the case will still resume. I have a feeling they may through the towel in !

How is it going with your smoke problem ?

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Dessie — Wed, 03 Feb 2016 09:33:39 +0000

I'm so pleased Mikee . It has been such a long hard struggle for you. Really well done for persevering and not throwing in the towel and moving. My smoke problem as I've said is not as bad as it was last year. But I shant forget the attitude of the EHO with their insistence that there was no problem!

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

tony — Wed, 10 Feb 2016 22:59:25 +0000

Me too, please keep us informed, I would say that raising a chimney would require planning.

What if anything is happening?

Major progress though.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Mon, 15 Feb 2016 20:28:02 +0000

Thank you Desie and Tony. Yes it is a big step forward. We have now received the official signed copy of the joint expert witness report. A copy has been sent to my neighbours along with a copy of the agreement. My neighbours have got to fund the raising of both their half and my half of the chimney. To date they haven't responded, it will be interesting to see what they choose to do. Our expert witness has carried out the calculations for the height increase of the chimney. He has stated that the increase is the maximum that can be applied without getting into the relms of planning permission and structural reports.

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Peter_in_Hungary — Mon, 15 Feb 2016 20:48:21 +0000

Posted By: Mikeee5He has stated that the increase is the maximum that can be applied without getting into the relms of planning permission and structural reports.

Hmmm.... How convenient

But it looks ever more likely that a resolution is in sight.......and hopefully soon!

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

Mikeee5 — Tue, 16 Feb 2016 17:20:41 +0000

Hi Peter

Do read that like "the maximum height specified" is not a be all and end all"?

Smoke Nuisance â€“ is wood wood?

longjohn2 — Wed, 17 Feb 2016 22:59:03 +0000

At long last ! Lets hope this brings to an end the lengthy battle you have had to endure! I think this could well set a precedent in dealing will smoke and fume nuisance ! Lets hope that the local authorities sit up and take note, and get involved sooner to stop others having to go through this! Well done mikeee5 and family.