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Heating and cooling: Smoke Nuisance – is wood wood?

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    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2012
     
    Joiner is correcto Tony. You wouldn't believe the amount of people I have spoken to regarding the smoke problem, the majority of which have pointed me back in the direction of my local Environmental Health Department who carried out their smoke monitoring when the fire wasn't even lit! Ive been fighting a losing battle.

    Mikeee5
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2012
     
    It won't be difficult when asked by the defence solicitor to say why the EHO didn't witness nuisance = because he visited when the fire was not lit!
    Good Luck
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2012
     
    That's one of those problematic situations in this scenario, windy. Think about it. If the neighbour claims the fire was lit then you have to PROVE that the reason there was no smoke was because it wasn't.

    That's taking it all back to the compliance issue. My argument would be that whether the EHO saw smoke or not is irrelevant; the fact that the stove is compliant is not at issue, the issue is that even given the start-up period allowed in the compliance standard, the nuisance continues beyond that time, is continuous and proven to be noxious.
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2012 edited
     
    On both occasions, the EHO had carried out an inspection at my neighbours property prior to visiting my property. On the first occasion the EHO said that my neighbour had prepared the fire ready for lighting prior to his inspection and commented that the stove was filled with rough sawn timber. I asked the officer if he had asked my neighbour to light the fire so he could make a judgment on the smoke? He said that he wasn’t allowed to do that! The second time he visited my property he had just carried out an unannounced inspection at my neighbours premises, again he said that the fire wasn’t lit and he couldn’t comment on the smoke.

    Mikeee
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2012
     
    Joiner- yes, I agree. It's a bit like visiting a pub (having had complaints of noise from live music) when there's no band playing. Actually proves nothing. What proves something is the evidence that Mike is gathering.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2012
     
    Job done. :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeAug 2nd 2012 edited
     
    I have just installed a CCTV system with night vision cameras to continually record the smoke. I have also been making some enquiries into monitoring equipment to prove the smoke is entering my property. I have spoken to a number of people in the monitoring business today and it looks like the equipment required to identify the nasties in the smoke would be very costly! However, I have found this little gizmo http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B007OM7IA2/ref=mp_s_a_4?qid=1343934054&sr=8-4 which measures and displays particle counts in 10 second time frames. It gives 2 size ranges from pm10 particulates to pm 2.5 which include smoke. 

    I wondered if it would be beneficial to obtain some particulate data from inside my property at the same time as the CCTV system is recording the smoke blowing across my home.

    Mikeee
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 2nd 2012
     
    Posted By: Mikeee5I wondered if it would be beneficial to obtain some particulate data from inside my property at the same time as the CCTV system is recording the smoke blowing across my home.


    Always worth it, but bear in mind that if you cook something then that will register. You will also need a benchmark figure from a similar house without a naughty neighbour.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2012 edited
     
    I had wondered whether Mike's own heating system might register, but for the record he's on gas.

    The fact that he's prepared to spend over £300 on monitoring the situation himself, effectively doing the EHD's job for them, will work in his favour. You wouldn't spend that much on something you wouldn't otherwise have a use or need for argues that something must be seriously amiss.

    Keeping a log of all his own activities likely to register (and that can be established over the couple of days it'll probably take to familiarise himself with the gadget) will also enable him and the court to distinguish between his own and the neighbour's contribution to the readings.

    'Calibrating' the instrument shouldn't be a problem. Just videoing the readings when the neighbour isn't causing the nuisance (leaving the camera running from the instrument to moving outdoors for a shot of the chimney to maintain continuity and avoid challenges on 'selective editing'), and again when he is, will establish a baseline.

    Hopefully, the difference in those readings will be dramatic enough to convince the court, which won't be expecting professional-level analysis of the situation - that's the whole point of s82.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2012
     
    Has it got a data logger on it :wink:
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2012
     
    Here is the full spec steamy, looks like it stores data.


    *Continuously monitors and stores data. Just plug in and turn on. Measures and displays Particle Counts in 10 second time frames. Plus Dynamic Bar Graph Display. Stores up to 30 days of data *Do you suffer from Bronchitis, Asthma, Persistent Coughing or Chest Infections? Do you feel that your Indoor Air Quality IAQ might be part of the problem? You can now instantly measure Indoor Particulate Pollution and know for sure! *Gives Particle Counts in TWO SIZE RANGES. From PM10 particulates which include coarse dust, pollen, dust mite debris etc down to the PM2.5 range which include the fine dust, mould, smoke and other particulates that are particularly prone to penetrating and lodging deep inside the alveoli of the lungs *Perfect for before and after monitoring of your cleaning and maintenance regimes *A must for Hotels, Guest Houses, Care Homes, Workshops, Shops, Warehouses and other indoor working and leisure environments *Amazing value! Superb Construction. The DYLOS DC11100. A fraction of the price of Commercial Models! Developed and tested specifically for consumer and semi professional use *Includes Air Quality PM2.5 Particulate Count Rating from Very Poor to Excellent *FCC and FDA Approved *Dimensions: 18x11x7.5cm *A great gift
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2012
     
    :bigsmile: "A great gift"?

    Mike, think I'd rather have an iPad and die happy. :wink:

    But an interesting find and I suspect one that will doubtless find its way into the desk drawer of some on here to answer the ongoing (currently suspended) debate about air quality and wood-burner emissions.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2012
     
    Was my birthday last week, I would have one as a gift, belated or otherwise. Would take it to Landsend when there was a westerly blowing and see what readings it records. Now what size are salt crystals :wink:
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2012
     
    It's actually a canny little gadget. Just spent some time searching around the net for something similar and I couldn't find anything that didn't come with an industrial price tag, let alone of its size and capabilities.

    Justifiable expense in Mike's case and, when he wins it, it would certainly be in my mind to add its cost to the exemplary costs because once the issue is settled then it's effectively redundant unless Mike fancies setting himself up as an environmental consultant. :wink:
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2012
     
    Oh, and happy belated birthday! :flowers:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2012
     
    cost?
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2012 edited
     
    You didn't send me flowers when it was my birthday j! 

    Glad you like the gadget. I spoke to  a number of people in the monitoring business yesterday and their monitoring devices started from £4k + vodka and tonic! Some of the equipment was priced well into double figures! Someone mentioned a carbon monoxide monitor also. The cost for the air quality monitor is £350.00

    There will be more smoke emitting from my credit card than my neighbours chimney at this rate!!!


    Mikeee


    Happy belated birthday steamy.:bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: Mikeee5You didn't send me flowers when it was my birthday j!


    I never send flowers as I get hay fever, makes me very wheezy :wink:
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2012
     
    Cost and detailed spec in the link in Mike's earlier post, Tony.
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2012
     
    I had a nice evening watching smellyvision last night, hope you guys had a nice time watching the Olympics! 

    Question:

    If mr stinky next door is using unseasoned wood, what would be the likelihood of the smoke containing measurable particulates? 

    My neighbour has just had a new load of freshly cut logs (with leaves) delivered, as mentioned in an earlier post the fumes smell like a freshly lit bonfire! 

    Come on Steamy, you're the data expert..

    Mikeee 
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2012 edited
     
    Mike, by definition all emissions will contain measurable particulates.

    It isn't the smell you're complaining about but the particulates and as his unseasoned wood will not burn as efficiently as seasoned wood...!

    Even the most "enthusiastic" biomass advocate on here will tell you that you don't burn unseasoned wood if you want your stove to work efficiently, which means with the maximum generation of the heat that does the work (either warming the occupants/dhw directly or indirectly via heating systems) and doing it with the minimum of emissions.
  22.  
    Wot Joiner said

    Burning green wood will give a higher level of smoke (and therefore particulates) because the fire will not be able to reach a good operating temperature to burn all that could be burned and in addition much of the energy contained in the wood will be needed to vapourise the water content of the wood so useable heat will be v.low and the steam and unburnt particulates will go up the chimney and cause all sorts of problems with tarring up of the chimney - especially if the chimney is poorly insulated. That is your neighbours problem!!!.

    From your position you should not be interested in what type of fuel is burnt - just that the emissions from the chimney cause a nuisance. The danger of complaining about the type of fuel used is that the fuel type changes to say seasoned wood and your complaint is thereby resolved.

    As has been said above don't complain about anything other than the nuisance emissions from the chimney affecting your property and health. You must not put forward ANY proposed solution, if asked what they should do then the answer is I don't know I'm not competent to answer that question.

    Having said that green wood will make the problem worse so get filming and data recording and invite friends and family around at the appropriate time to witness the problem so that you have independent witnesses.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2012
     
    Get a photo of the wood delivery.
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2012 edited
     
    Thanks for the information. I have placed an ordered for an air quality monitor. It would be good if i could provide some evidence for court that the fumes are in and around my property. I've just had to shut off my conservatory as it is now full of smoke! The fumes to my decking area and the rear of my property are horrendous ! The smell of the fumes has changed back to the same offensive smell we were experiencing before the EHO paid my neighbours a visit. I wouldn't be surprised if their son has been supplying them with scrap wood from building sites again! 

    Mikeee
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2012
     
    As Peter says, it is the effect of the smoke/fumes/emissions that is the problem and not what is being burnt.
    Just keep that log going and the more evidence you have the better.
  26.  
    I have tried to avoid commenting on this because of concerns raised on other threads but must point out that type of fuel burned and characteristics directly correlate to health impact. We are aware combustion of coal and timber produces far more hazardous emissions content than oil ,gas, hydrogen etc. The water and bark content in timber dramatically increases particulate pollution and the water content reduces thermal buoyancy adding to the emissions inversion problems. Biomass boiler manufacturers detail that high water and bark content can create 10% ash content.
    Surely the fundamental concern is , why are the emissions from this wood burner degrading Mikeee’s air quality with known health consequences?
  27.  
    Posted By: BrianwilsonSurely the fundamental concern is , why are the emissions from this wood burner degrading Mikeee’s air quality with known health consequences?

    The concern is that the emissions from this wood burner degrading Mikeee’s air quality, but the why , for the purposes of section 82 must not be allowed to sidetrack the fact that Mikeee is entitled to have the emissions stopped.

    As a side issue IMO a combination of the chimney and something in its surroundings is failing to push the emissions above Mikeee' property. It could be that a 5ft chimney pot on top of the chimney will solve the problem, but you can not suggest this because if you do and it fails to cure the problem them the neighbour will have done what was asked and will then reject further complaints. Once the neighbour is told to stop the nuisance by the court it is up to him as to how he complies. But IMO burning good dry wood will not cure the problem if it is caused by down draft, it will just make the nuisance more difficult to demonstrate.

    Further the burning of green wood could be to mikeee's advantage as this will produce smoke that will be much easier to film and particles that are easier to measure. Good dry wood will produces less emissions and almost clear emissions once the stove is up to temperature and this would be much more difficult to demonstrate as evidence.

    Posted By: SteamyTeaJust keep that log going and the more evidence you have the better.
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2012 edited
     
    Can anyone see a problem with blatantly recording my neighbours smoke? I`ve just been playing back the recordings from the last few episodes of smellyvision live and it looks like the CCTV cams need to be closer to the chimney. I have some good footage on the digi cam from the last few days also, managed to capture a 45 minute burn on saturday evening!

    Mikeee5
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2012 edited
     
    If you can get the camera pointing Northwards, you won't get glare from the sun.
    Could be useful for looking at cloud cover/weather too :wink:
    • CommentAuthorMikeee5
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2012
     
    This is the problem Steamy, tis pointing westwards! I wonder if he will mind if I stick the cam on his half of the roof he! he! :wink:

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