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General: Decisions decisions, PVC vs timber windows!

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012 edited
     
    So we have a quote for £8500 for Geneo Passivhaus certified windows from Solent Windows vs. £10500 quote for triple glazed timber windows from Russell Timber Tech ("U-value of 0.75 on a 1200*1200mm unit").

    Our budget is tight as a duck's chuff. We start build in six weeks. Lead time on PVC is two weeks. Lead time on timber is seven weeks.

    Arhh, decisions decisions!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    How long do you intend to stay in the house?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012 edited
     
    If budget allowed i'd go for wood.
    Woods still the better product in environmental and longevity terms if looked after .
    That's not a massive jump in price for wood , is it inc. vat
    • CommentAuthorPaulJ
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    I ordered a front door from Russell Timbertech on 15 June and they have given me a delivery date for w/c 20 August. 10 weeks! Maybe they grow the timber to order from seed?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    I reckon plastic windows are temporary windows so you should factor in replacement costs.

    Wood needs to cared for and I prefer ali clad wood windows.

    again how long is your time scale and can you afford not to fit the best?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    Are:-
    1. The windows woodgrain finish or paint.
    2. Apart from any quirky glazing etc., Are the main windows standard or non standard sizes.
    3. Do they have to be Passivhaus standard, or would good 3G windows, 0.8, be OK.
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    Posted By: Shevek
    Our budget is tight as a duck's chuff. We start build in six weeks. Lead time on PVC is two weeks. Lead time on timber is seven weeks.


    You've answered your own question there. The practical considerations are pushing the PVC.

    However, you clearly want the wood instead, or else you wouldn't be asking. So the question really is: do you buy what you want, or what you need? Only you can answer that.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    Thanks guys. Hehe, yes Seret, good point, although the lead time isn't the end of the world and using natural materials is practical concern for us too (there're three of us making the decision!).

    One thing I'm not sure about is airtightness. The Geneo windows, I'm assuming, will come out trumps in this regard right?

    And there's another window in the running too. We've been quoted £9500 for triple-glazed Swish PVC windows supply and fit, and we're just waiting for a supply-only price, but I'm assuming say £2000 off the fitted price?
    http://www.swishwindows.co.uk/swish-triple-glazing.aspx

    So my same question would apply for them too. How will their airtightness compare to the Geneo and Russel Tech windows, in the short and long term.
  9.  
    Not really up on longterm airtightness of various manifacturers profiles, but I'd say with wood you've got more opertunity to adjust and adapt in the long term .
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2012
     
    Posted By: ShevekOne thing I'm not sure about is airtightness. The Geneo windows, I'm assuming, will come out trumps in this regard right?


    I have 2 sets patio doors and two "normal" doors from Russell timber (windows from a now-defunct co. ) we got whole house airtightness rating of 1.86 and I really think their airtightness is very good. I can't detect any deterioration in the 2 years since installation.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2012
     
    Posted By: ShevekRussell Timber Tech ("U-value of 0.75 on a 1200*1200mm unit").

    Have they any plans to Passivhaus-certify them, do you know?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012 edited
     
    Is there a percentage of entire budget for a Passivhaus refurb and extension that we should be aiming to be under for the cost of the windows?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    Posted By: djh
    Have they any plans to Passivhaus-certify them, do you know?

    I don't know.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2012
     
    We just received a pretty good price from Green Building Store for their new Eco-Contract Passive timber windows coming out at the end of the year, but the end of the year is too late for our programme!! My father is coming here from overseas to build it for us (for free!) and he needs to go back in December. Arghh.
    • CommentAuthorMikeRumney
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2012
     
    Posted By: ShevekWe just received a pretty good price from Green Building Store for their new Eco-Contract Passive timber windows coming out at the end of the year, but the end of the year is too late for our programme!! My father is coming here from overseas to build it for us (for free!) and he needs to go back in December. Arghh.


    ... hope you're being green and making him walk and/or swim! :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2012 edited
     
    Just realised the russell tech quote excluded VAT, so actually they were £4000 more than the Geneo windows. :(

    But crikey, looks like Green Building have a good window on their hands.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: MikeRumney... hope you're being green and making him walk and/or swim!

    It'd be a long swim from the other side of the world. We're ticking it up to a long due visit. Haven't seen each other for a few years.
  18.  
    So taking this passiv haus certified thing first... ...why...?

    - involved in a research project?
    - have completely greened all other aspects of your life..?
    - are a PH trained designer /assessor needing experience...?
    - enjoy spending lots of money climbing diminishing returns graphs....?
    :wink:

    Go for PH performance, using PHPP instead of SAP to inform the design and use the minimum standards they prescribe +/- 10%. Would suggest that way you will get 95% performance for about 75% of the cost.

    As I understand it if a room full of fictional evil geniuses go together to plan the most environmentalist harmful product they could they wouldn't go far wrong than just going for PVC... ...so not sure it makes sense to spend thousands on performance (presumably for environmental reasons...?) then choose PVC...:confused:

    For my project I chose Russell Timber who are at a great place on that diminishing returns curve and can U=0.9 3g windows in timber or Ali clad timber.

    (re Ali clad, that's an other storey but Nordan have done some good work on LCA: http://www.nordan.no/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Academic-Research-20081.pdf )

    J
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: James NortonAs I understand it if a room full of fictional evil geniuses go together to plan the most environmentalist harmful product they could they wouldn't go far wrong than just going for PVC... ...so not sure it makes sense to spend thousands on performance (presumably for environmental reasons...?) then choose PVC...http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/confused.gif" alt=":confused:" title=":confused:" >

    I agree to an extent (there're three of us here that are trying to make a decision). But there are trade-offs on any decision and that extra 2-3 grand could be the difference between us being able to afford enough insulation elsewhere or not for instance.

    The decision we're discussing at the moment is whether or not to delay the build until next year in order to get the new timber Eco-Contract outward opening passive windows. But that means we lose money here and there (e.g. rental income, price of plane ticket for builder), people putting off having babies, another winter in a bitterly cold house, etc.

    Such inconvenient timing from Green Building. If only this window was coming out a few months earlier.
  20.  
    Save the 2-3 grand by going for not-quite-so-passiv timber windows, everyone happy including the other two evil geniuses...?

    :bigsmile:

    J
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2012
     
    At the moment the trade-off for timber windows is delaying the project.
  22.  
    Only if you use the Green Building store... not renknowned as the best value...

    J
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2012 edited
     
    Well the price for their new Eco-Contract passive house outward opening windows bet Russell Tech windows by £2300 and they can do triple-glazed bi-folding doors.
  24.  
    V. Surprised. In that case sounds like they're worth the wait then? Get them on pre-order. Tweak the window detail so that windows can be fitted later in the program (a temporary weather tight blank fitted...?) and get going. I'm sure dad can come in handy for all sorts of things non window related!

    :bigsmile:

    J
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2012 edited
     
    That's the very discussion we're having now. One of the major points of contention is that the original plan was simply a standard loft conversion and rear extension. The whole 'let's insulate to high heaven and get rid of the central heating' strategy came as an afterthought and the budget hasn't really changed. So high performance PVC windows were already over and above the original plan, let along more for timber windows.

    In any case we'd almost definitely go for them for the extra 2K if it wasn't for the timeline problems. If we delay the project we'd also lose money on plane ticket for the builder (potentially £1300) and we'd lose money on lost rental of spare room. And it would be bad timing for various other reasons too.

    Delaying just the windows would have a knock-on effect; the EWI and internal linings would also have to wait. And it would mean having to pay someone to install them as my father would no longer be around. I kind of prefer this last option but it's really more a matter of simply not having the money. :sad:
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2012 edited
     
    Just been speaking to Green Building Store again.

    They also quoted us triple glazed 0.9 u-value Eco-Contract windows for just £1000 more than the Geneo PVC and crucially they only have an 8 week lead time, which we could probably deal with.

    He said they have actually reached Passivhaus on a scheme with these windows before by making it up in other areas.

    We likely wouldn't have the budget or space to make it up in other areas, but perhaps Passivhaus is just unrealistic on our budget in any case and maybe 0.9 windows would be enough to reach EnerPhit (or at least a reasonably comfortable upgrade of our house).
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2012
     
    I'm pleased to hear Green Building Store window prices are looking reasonable now. Are these their list price? They are local to me, seem a good product and a couple of years ago they were looking very expensive- but I never tried to haggle with them - I just tend to get put off and look elsewhere.

    Perhaps should start another thread? Why for instance is it common to buy rainwater goods at 75% off list and on other things the price is apparently fixed?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 17th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: RobinBI'm pleased to hear Green Building Store window prices are looking reasonable now.

    Apparently because the supplier for these new outward opening passive windows are different from the polish supplier for their inward opening.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2012
     
    Looks like we're going to delay the project until March.

    This will give us the option to go for the new windows from Green Building but the reasons we're actually going to delay is because it suits my father better (and he'll be able to stay on afterwards) and because it gives us more time to refine details and get quotes for everything else.

    Didn't realise the prospect of a delay could be so exciting!
  30.  
    Posted By: ShevekDidn't realise the prospect of a delay could be so exciting!


    :smile:

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