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    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2012
     
    I've just come across an interesting article.

    http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/belgian-passivhaus-rendered-uninhabitable-bad-indoor-air

    It concerns a Passivhaus that apparently was declared uninhabitable because of problems with the ground tube used in the ventilation system, and with the OSB vapour barrier.

    Lots of food for thought! :shocked:

    If anybody finds a copy of the original paper that is mentioned, I'd appreciate a link or a copy.
  1.  
    • CommentAuthorCerisy
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    Well, thank you guys for talking me out of the ground tubes!!
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012 edited
     
    As with any new technology, the problem is not the technology itself but a lack of understanding on the part of the designers and the installers. A knowledge of both psychrometrics and properties of materials is essential.

    I have been specifying earth pipe systems successfully for 4 years, for both commercial and domestic projects in lieu of air conditioning. The pipes must be laid to fall to a sump and a pump used to remove the condensate, as there will be condensation in the matrix during summer when used for cooling. The pipes must be made of a conductive non-absorbent material which does not support microbial growth.

    This requires a piping system manufactured from solid (not foamed as standard) polypropylene and impregnated with silver to prevent microbial growth. Hence the expense of properly designed systems.

    Within the commissioning procedures the underground matrix has to be cleaned of all dust using pressure washing and pressure tested to ensure there are no groundwater leaks.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: CerisyWell, thank you guys for talking me out of the ground tubes!!

    To be fair, it seemed that it was a particularly poorly designed and installed ground tube that caused problems, so perhaps a properly done one would be OK.

    The OSB issue seems more of a concern to me.

    Chris, that link has the text :bigsmile: but is missing the figures :cry:
  2.  
    Posted By: djhThe OSB issue seems more of a concern to me.


    It's a concern for me too. I am not using OSB as a vapour barrier, I have a plastic sheet VB and then a 70mm insulated service cavity inside of it. I was however considering to use a layer of OSB or shuttering ply then plasterboard on two of the kitchen walls and two of the living room walls to aid the installation of kitchen units, shelves etc.

    As such I would be looking to use the cheapest product available which will get the job done but in doing so I don't want to endanger indoor air quality due to formaldehyde emissions.

    Thoughts anyone?

    [Edit] It seems there is a EN classification system for formaldehyde emissions with the best classification being E1 which is negligible to zero emissions.
  3.  
    Posted By: Chris P BaconI was however considering to use a layer of OSB or shuttering ply then plasterboard on two of the kitchen walls and two of the living room walls to aid the installation of kitchen units, shelves etc.

    As such I would be looking to use the cheapest product available which will get the job done but in doing so I don't want to endanger indoor air quality due to formaldehyde emissions.
    You could replace OSB/plywood & plasterboard with Fermacell. It takes screws as well as OSB/plywood & doesn't require a plaster skim, so it can be cost effective overall.

    David
  4.  
    Thanks David, the plasterboard is already on site so I will probably end up with getting OSB if the local stockists have low formaldehyde stuff. A quick look on the net shows them listing two products Class 3 Contifinish and Class 3 Nexfor, no idea if the classification is for emissions or something else or what the difference is between contifinish and nexfor but I will quiz them when I am in the store next week. Failing that the fermacell will be the next option.
  5.  
    Formaldehyde release is measured according to EN120 & Class E1 achieves less than or equal to 8mg/100g.

    See table on Page 3 of following:

    http://www.smartply.com/assets/files/SmartPly%20OSB%203.pdf

    David
    • CommentAuthorbella
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    The report by Leeds Metropolitan University, (leedsmet.ac.uk) identified other probable causes of the problem - at least as important as the non-draining earth tube. The insulated timber frame had a brick skin separated from the frame by a 25cm unventilated gap. The bricks got saturated by the rain. It is proposed that in summer sun on the brickwork would raise the temperature of the bricks to way above that of the timber frame and interior so raising the relative humidity of the cavity and wood frame assembly to 100% (and thus above dewpoint). With little capacity for moisture to evaporate either externally or internally disaster struck. An earth tube that wasn't ventilating and formaldehyde release certainly wouldn't help the internal atmosphere but a properly functioning one would not have overcome the wall problem. One message might be "beware internal vapour excluding layers unless you are sure you know where water vapour/water is going" or put another way "Long live ventilation and evaporation".
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Posted By: bellaThe report by Leeds Metropolitan University, (leedsmet.ac.uk) identified other probable causes of the problem

    Do you have a link to that report, please Bella?
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012 edited
     
  6.  
    Posted By: bellaThe insulated timber frame had a brick skin separated from the frame by a 25cm unventilated gap.
    I guess that should read 25mm.

    David
    • CommentAuthorbella
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    yes, definitely mm!

    I think it was leedsmet.ac.uk/as/cebe/projects/tap/tap-part1.pdf
  7.  
    Hi,
    This is picked up more in the first article under the heading inward solar vapour drive and concludes that “Solar-driven vapor flow is not considered by most of the designers and builders.” I think we have discussed on there somewhere in the past the pump like action of vapour movement during heat/cool cycles.

    Cheers, Mike up North

    Btw its worth tracking through all of the posts at the bottom of the article. Comments (87 off) and other cross ref links such as

    http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/building-science/rain-control-energy-efficient-buildings-building-science-podcast
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    bella - I'm getting '404 Page not found' for that link of yours. :confused:
  8.  
    Hi,

    The link in the other thread works for me.

    The TAP_part 1 mentioned above (bella) is the Temple Avenue Project (TAP) which is the new build report I’d referred in the other thread on the JRF reports.
    .
    The link here (via above xpost) is for Elm Tree Mews Field trial – a likewise good read.

    I think Leedsmet need a doc controller / management sys to number these.

    Cheers, Mike up North
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Ah well. bella's 'link' took me to the Leeds Metropolitan site but the 404 error came up on the site. Did try going through the various site links on there, but I was chasing my tail.
  9.  
    Hi, another version is on the JRT org site

    http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/low-carbon-housing-full.pdf

    I'm not sure if this is word for word as per the Leeds Met original

    try http://www.leedsmet.ac.uk/as/cebe/projects/elmtree/index.htm for the home page then you have either "full report 8MB" at the lead para or the JRT link at the bottom of the para 3MB.

    A good read for me instead of doing the gardening

    Failing that don't see why we can post the pdf on here seems like public dom info ?? Anybody?

    Cheers Mike up North
  10.  
    Posted By: djhI've just come across an interesting article.

    http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/belgian-passivhaus-rendered-uninhabitable-bad-indoor-air" rel="nofollow" >http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/belgian-passivhaus-rendered-uninhabitable-bad-indoor-air

    It concerns a Passivhaus that apparently was declared uninhabitable because of problems with the ground tube used in the ventilation system, and with the OSB vapour barrier.

    Lots of food for thought!http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/shocked.gif" alt=":shocked:" title=":shocked:" >

    If anybody finds a copy of the original paper that is mentioned, I'd appreciate a link or a copy.


    That's an interesting article, particularly to me as I am in the process of internally insulating solid brick walls with EPS and an OSB inner sheath (starting from outside 220mm brick, ventilation gap, 100-150mm EPS, 18mm OSB sheathing).

    Having read that I am going to be extra careful that the ventilation gap is properly vented top and bottom!
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