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General: Need some up-to-date energy planning advice for a grade II listed farmhouse...

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    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2012
     
    >FREEZING in the winter

    Not here, this one is lived in by people with a HUGE oil bill.
    It is toasty in winter (my wife insists it be so) but we might as well burn money.
    Despite burning money there are cold spots. Thermal imager is a frightening toy.
    Still, at least it is still draughty enough (depsite our best efforts) that we don't have too much condensation... only on the single glazed sash windows anyway.

    But I figured if I enlarge the site with eco builds I can bring the average up a bit.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2012 edited
     
    Ha ha. Sprocket, these are the windows that had to go in, chosen by the CO from the three options I'd drawn up to her (very loose) specifications...

    [IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/hvul47.jpg[/IMG]

    This is the WIP...

    [IMG]http://i42.tinypic.com/33jn49k.jpg[/IMG]

    The oak frame isn't painted white, but with an aluminium-pigmented primer similar to... http://www.littlegreene.com/media/docs/aluminium-wood-primer-advice.pdf ...but actually a silver finish that just shows white here (cheap digital camera I used for work). It was subsequently painted black on the suggestion of the CO (long since gone from the council).

    Because of the expense of doing everything "right", which in general had as much to do with the customer (now a good friend) actually wanting to "do right by the building" (apart from stupidity like the beam mentioned earlier) as with the CO's demands, so there was some convergence.

    You can imagine what happens with those metal casements in winter. Draughty and running with condensation. The original idea was to fit secondary glazing. Not that it would have helped that much, I suspect, because although made to exacting standards of dimensional accuracy, they were still metal casement windows, of slim section, with a single fastener mid-casement! You'll never get rid of the draughts or the ingress of moist air from outside.

    There are a LOT of stories about this property!
    • CommentAuthorcrusoe
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2012
     
    Amen to the comments of listed building madness here. Sometimes it appears that the less you tell anybody the better. An Englishman's listed building is still his castle.... Three especial dichotomies I can think of -

    1. Disabled: Listed building - no disabled access...but we have disabled friends and want to put a small ramp in so they can visit. NO WAY - spoil the look yada yada... virtually every other building in the land HAS to have aforesaid ramps.

    2. Health and safety: As mentioned above: over-steep staircase (on which nobody has died in 327 years as self-preservation seems to be alive and kicking) cannot under ANY circumstances be changed. But a DIYer with a nice loft conversion who inadvertently put a degree too much into his nice new staircase WILL rip it out and change it.

    3. We have to be carbon neutral, heating virtually from a light bulb or two - in new build. Yet as above, no DG or EWI/IWI allowed in listed buildings.

    Makes a mockery of the seriousness of all three topics and shows up a lot of the lip-service political correctness in current politics and the British 'seen-to-be-ticking-all-boxes' mentality. I speak as a Brit, but one who has lived abroad. Aaaaaaaaaarghhhhhh! Rant over.

    Foster Tom - very interested to hear of your experiment, as one who has utilised oversize solar thermal since the early noughties. Suspect it may not quite be for everyone tho'. Do keep us posted.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2012
     
    Case of Britain having having lost the plot I think.

    I suspect that for almost every rule there is one that does not allow it.
  5.  
    My home is an 1850ish farmhouse. The people we bought it from were a DIY nightmare but the one thing they did do right was refuse the Listing Officer (or whatever they are called) entry to the building. Despite their powers after listing they had no right of entry and without it were not able to go through the listing process. That was 20 yrs ago, they have never been back.

    Not sure if the same still applies but worth knowing if in a similar situation.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2012
     
    I'm tenant of a 1000 acre estate, given to the family by Richard the Lionheart and they're still there, 15 ancient farmsteads, a Norman mansion and numerous cottages, prob all Listable, but always a shotgun welcome to officialdom, so still FREE! Tho the National Park's onerous Planning Control can't be flouted.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2012 edited
     
    Hmmm. ANYONE can apply for a building to be Listed.

    http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/caring/listing/listed-buildings/how-do-buildings-become-listed/

    Note the last sentence of this...

    http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/caring/listing/listed-buildings/consultation-process/

    "then English Heritage may choose not to notify or consult the owner or local authority."

    And take special note of: " English Heritage assesses buildings put forward for listing or de-listing and provides advice to the Secretary of State on the architectural and historic interest. The Secretary of State, who may seek additional advice from others, then decides whether or not to list or de-list the building." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listed_building ]
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2012
     
    Posted By: fostertoma 1000 acre estate
    Should have said 10,000 acres, about 35 sq km.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2012
     
    Most of Devon is owned by some nob or other. Oh, and Noel Edmunds of course. :cool:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2012 edited
     
    I used to see Noel shopping in Aylesbury Sainsbury in the mid to late 80's, just after his wife left him.
    He really is little.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2012
     
    My son often sees his helicopter flying into his place, which apparently isn't too far away.

    He's a nice bloke, apparently.
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2012
     
    Joiner wrote:-

    > these are the windows that had to go in

    Couldn't you have done something a bit nicer - maybe like the pink ones downstairs next door? :-)

    Awesome little place. I can't imagine who the planner's think is going to want/need to live there though.

    - Andy
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2012
     
    Joiner was your son involved in the plane that went down at Portreath yesterday. I saw the helicopter.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2012
     
    Sprocket - :bigsmile: You can't beat a good opposed side-hung with top-hung.

    The centre one of those three (the more observant amongst you will see that it used to be one property - long story) has had the most work done on it, a lot of it unsympathetic. The one I worked on had been preserved by neglect, a wealth of original features, but she couldn't really afford to do all that was needed to the place, even with a 60% grant as part of an area regeneration scheme, co-funded by EH.
    • CommentAuthorRoger
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2012
     
    Listed buildings represent the best examples of historic building stock and are a finite asset, (more or less). That’s why COs are resistant to faddish changes. You’ll find that it is the likes of EH, SPAB and so who have saved, or at least attempted to resist the installation of a variety of wonderful new building solutions, including cement mortar (causes accelerated decay of soft stone or historic brick), spray insulation (rots roof timbers via the creation of a ‘wet poultice’), even more PVCu in place of durable historic timber (short life expectancy). You might add multifoil to the list, and other measures that promote internal condensation, damp and decay.

    Posters are right to suggest that if you want EWI and new double glazed windows where there are historic survivors, or IWI where you have historic plaster and cornices, stay away from listed buildings. If you want buildings that have proved their sustainability through surviving centuries, they may however be for you. Changes which affect the character of the building are likely to need listed building consent. Repairs in like-for like material do not need lbc. Much of this control is in place to avoid insensitive changes that can in many cases be detrimental not only to the appearance of a building but also its longevity, and hence sustainability.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2012 edited
     
    Roger, anyone coming on here will be asked for the details of their building's construction and warned of the dangers of doing anything wrong. It's why this is such a good forum, as you should know having been a member for so long.

    Use the search facility above and put in "interstitial condensation" to see how aware this forum is of the dangers you're saying certain comments on this thread appear to be encouraging.

    Not all COs "are resistant to faddish changes", some that I've known accept that it can often be in a Listed building's best interest to upgrade its energy efficiency by measures that don't substantially affect (not damage, note) its original fabric.

    We've had this discussion too often to repeat it ALL again here, but to take one example within my own experience, please don't tell me how the hell it can be argued that Bovis Home-style windows fitted in the 1970s, into holes made into a wall of a Listed building that didn't have windws there before, and none of which were visible from a public highway of any description, shouldn't be replaced with double-glazed windows of a style more "in keeping" with a period property, especially when the dormer fitted in the '70s was OK'd for replacement with two double-glazed rooflights that could be seen from two nearby roads.

    Before...
    [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/2myyhkn.jpg[/IMG]

    After...
    [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/b8kdxj.jpg[/IMG]

    And yet when I surveyed this house (facing the main road and visible to anyone passing) and told the houseowner that she could forget the double-glazing she kept talking about because the CO's knee-jerk reaction would be to refuse it, I was told that it was the CO who'd suggested it! Different COs, same office!!

    [IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/11rx478.jpg[/IMG]

    Go figure. Although I gave up trying years ago, as have most of the people I know who have had dealings with COs. It was those two examples that prompted me to retire when I did. I came to the conclusion that I really didn't need all their crap any more.
    • CommentAuthorRoger
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2012
     
    Joiner, I agree that is ridiculous on the '70s windows. As has been said, depends on the Officer - I'd have taken that one to appeal as it's a nonsensical position. Just saying not entirely accurate to tar all with same brush :)
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2012
     
    :bigsmile:

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