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    • CommentAuthorJTGreen
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2012
     
    The house is (almost) finished and we've moved back in - hurrah. The garden is still a work in progress. And one I hadn't put much thought into beyond knowing that we wanted

    *a bike/wood/bin covered area with possibilities for undercover outside laundry drying
    *additional large raised bed in optimum position in garden

    All of that has been achieved. With the largish covered area at the back of the garden, the house extension and a new large raised bed, we're left with not a great deal left and have decided to have all patio instead of lawn. However, I now have to decide what sort of paving - which is something of an ecological disaster area.

    I've been offered some Indian sandstone left over from another job, but would need to get more to complete our patio. Cursory look into the subject suggests I steer clear - child labour, heavy product shipped over long distances.

    Concrete paving has its own problems in terms of resources used.

    I've looked into local natural stone - and it's too expensive for me. Reclaimed isn't much cheaper.

    Thoughts on patio paving?
  1.  
    Spaced concrete paviors at least give you permeability (provided your sub-base and soil is permeable enough to let it run through) even if they *are* concrete.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2012
     
    "Crazy Paving" for that Old School look.
    Or if you are against concrete and worried about water run off, then stone chippings on a weed control membrane.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2012
     
    Second hand bricks for me
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2012 edited
     
    I don't understand the reluctance to use concrete products, concrete can be a 'green' material if specified correctly.

    The BRE's green guide to specification is a 'cradle to grave' assessment of a material's environmental impact and takes into account longevity, construction methods and transport. Some concrete products score very highly.

    For domestic hard landscaping for pedestrian areas:

    Indian sandstone B (normally stone is A rated)
    Concrete pavoirs A
    Concrete paving 35mm A+

    Free access to this information is available on-line at:

    http://www.bre.co.uk/page.jsp?id=499

    This is a great tool to help make informed choices.

    All second hand and recycled material is an automatic A or A+ rating.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2012
     
    If you spaced the "left over" Indian sandstone with bands of gravel - anything from 3" to 12" wide would you then have enough? You'd then have something that is relatively self draining, as Nick suggests, and could, if you like, plant herbs such as thyme or other low growing plants in the gravel. I'd lay a sheet of inexpensive weed barrier before gravelling and cut through it to plant.

    Alternatively if you'll be using a table and chairs put the sandstone flags relatively closely spaced under this area so you don't have to think about whether the chair legs are going to sink each time you sit down (minor irritation) and put a wide gravel border around the edge.
    • CommentAuthorJTGreen
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2012
     
    If you use a mortar bed, doesn't that reduce the permeability (?to close to nil?) - forgive my ignorance about that. My builder has been great on the insulation and other 'green' areas of the build, but the SUDS issue has been a bit of a blind spot - or perhaps we just never properly had that conversation. The plan outlined to me was gravel around the edges for drainage and run off into borders.

    Our old paving slabs were reused in the bike/wood/bin store area and were laid on a mortar bed and pointed, which I was told was necessary to avoid them shifting about in the future (old patio was butt jointed and laid on sand!). I didn't pursue the issue of permeability because I didn't feel I knew what I was talking about.
  2.  
    wwwDOTpavingexpertDOTcom has some really useful paving info, incl a bit on SUDS.

    In terms of mortar bed or not, have a look at how block paving is installed. It is all about edge restraint and compaction. If the edges are restrained (to a point below the sand bed, not just the bottom of the blocks), then once you have compacted the sand thoroughly nothing can go anywhere. It would be a bit more tricky with stone and gravel infil, because the sand could rise in the gaps between the stones, pushing up the gravel and making the stones drop, although if the stones are reasonably deep and you can get a couple of points of contact between each stone and its neighbour you may still be OK. You migt need a bit of mortar at the edges if you cannot get excellent contact with the edge restraint.

    The peroblem with ''gravel around the edges for drainage and run off'' it may be ok, but less so if it's a small proportion of the 'hard' area - and remember that any amount of gravel will do little if there's clay or bedrock close beneath. You may need quite a bit of excavation. (Apologies if that's all teaching you to suck eggs!).

    Nick
    • CommentAuthorJTGreen
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2012
     
    Not teaching to suck eggs at all - I'm completely uninformed on this, other than knowing what I want to achieve - hard area for sitting out with table and benches, minimize impact on environment, both in terms of materials and how they are laid. Quite a bit of digging has already been done (the best soil going in the raised bed) and hardcore down. I'll have a look at the website (thanks!) and if makes sense to avoid mortar bed, then will try to persuade my builder of that!
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2012
     
    I'm with ST, crazy paving, may be a bit dated (think retro, it will be back in fashion) but cheap and re-cycled (in shropshire I used to buy broken paving slabs for £3 a ton collected) run off to a french drain and soak-away full of re-cycled broken bricks.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2012
     
    Posted By: GaryBThe BRE's green guide to specification is a 'cradle to grave' assessment of a material's environmental impact and takes into account longevity, construction methods and transport.

    It usually gets a hard time on here on account of some surprising ratings - PVC and aluminium come to mind, but I don't pay the guide much attention so I may have misremembered. That concern is deepened because, as I understand it, BRE refuse to explain what methodology they use for assigning the ratings.
  3.  
    probably been mentioned already , but 2nd hand is your greenist choice , plenty on freecycle and free ads or auction sites. Conc. slabs or bricks are easily reusable if the mucks not to strong.
    lay them on compacted sharp sand on a firm base ( made out of left over hardcore from project ?)
    • CommentAuthorJTGreen
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2012
     
    Decided against crazy paving in the end - not so much on aesthetic grounds, but it's actually not that cheap once you include the labour involved to do it right.

    In the end went with 450 x 450 concrete slabs laid stretcher bond, mostly new (£2.15 each), though was able to include few from other projects (reclaimed and leftovers) and a tiny path between raised beds at the back with reclaimed 600 x 600 to match with the reclaimed slabs we used under the covered bike/wood/bin store.

    It looks really nice (at least to my eyes) - though everything needs a good scrub (or we need a hard rain, which I'm sure we'll get soon enough) and I'm glad not to have the indian sandstone. Just got to get on with some planting now before the weeds take over and the local cats designate the beds as their toilet, two water butts to connect (regret: not putting in underground water capture), the hot compost to get started and a plan for how to make the composter look less obtrusive in our little patio garden (can't go in the covered area as produces moisture - not good for laundry drying under cover or the wood store).
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