Posted By: chippyclausPosted by Gavin:
This sounds fine in principle, but as I understand it (following a meeting specifically to discuss it), the savings aren't based on actual gas consumption levels in the house, but on an RDSAP estimate of what those savings would be on average in an average house with those specifications and occupancy levels.

The EPC (energy rating) produced for the property is based on RdSAP, but the Green Deal Advisor will take account of individual usage look at the individua'ls bills, times at home, etc. I wonder at what meeting you picked up the info you refered to. I am in the process of getting my domestic energy assessor paper and will be starting the Green Deal advisor course later this month.

I do agree with everybody on the business of the high interest rate, it really limits the ability of the Green Deal.

I was specifically told that this only applied to the electricity bill, as this is the only bill on which the repayments is based.

All the heating side of things was to be based on RDSAP, and this is how the savings would be calculated - ie for the building rather than for the individual user.

obviously the person telling me this could have got it wrong, but they're one of the key trainers / development workers for one of the main CPS schemes that's going to be accrediting people, so I'd hope they'd know how it worked.

I'm thinking of signing up, or at least getting an assessment when they start next month. Although it's not a problem actually paying it, I wouldn't be allowed to increase the my mortgage since it's already a ridiculous boom-era multiple of my salary.

So I've been reading the threads here, on superhomes, the DECC, some providers websites, etc, but I can't find out much detail of how the scheme will work, particularly in conjunction with other works I'd like to get done. Say the assessor says the flat could do with CWI+IWI, double glazing, MVHR, ST (on the advice of this forum, I've already got a solar-ready combi boiler), and insulation on the flat roof. Can I say I'll just take the IWI, ST, glazing and MVHR, since the freeholder council will do the rest under Decent Homes in a couple of years?

Then there are spillover works to IWI, relocating services, and needing a new kitchen and bathroom as a result of the walls having moved. Presumably I have to pay for these directly, including the installation? Then there are other things I'd like done at the same time more about making the place nicer than energy savings.

So how do green deal works fit within a larger package of works? Can a Green Deal installer be a subcontractor of the builder doing other works? Or do I need a Green Deal main contractor, and get them to do other works, perhaps on a separate contract running at the same time? And how does this all work with the Green Deal provider?

On a related note, say someone was wanting to extend but could only borrow a certain amount in the normal fashion. Presumably it would be possible to get other green deal works done at the same time because until they got scared off for it being called a 'conservatory tax' the government had been looking to make this mandatory. But if you need to have a separate contract or contractor in, I can see it being a right palaver. Then there's issues about if it's the existing or proposed SAP rating the golden rule is related to, and how this all relates to the SAP-based part L process if you've got a nice amount of glazing...

Lot of questions, but if someone could point me in the right direction that would be much appreciated.

My advice would still be to approach you mortgage provider and see if they will lend you the cash if they will it will then be cheaper than the green deal.

The early redemption payments are going to be steep.
And this golden rule about not costing more, how is inflation taken into account.
Have I mentioned that it is the same financial model as the SLC use. There was a bit about that on the radio and apparently if a new graduate walks into a £38k/year job then they will pay their loan of in the 30 year period, earn less and the rest of us pick up the bill (not begrudging paying for education, just highlighting a faulty scheme).

So if I got lots of work done on my house, which is off the gas grid, and had a debt of say £15k, to be spread over the next few year via my electrical bill, and then I popped on PV/ST, put in a cheap wood burner at my own expense and used little electricity, would I ever pay the debt back, and who would.

Right, so it is a simple loan masquerading a meter rental.

So some numbers:
When I first moved here I used 11 MWH/year
Now I use about 4.5 MWH/year
Let is assume that the GD improvements can do the same to my neighbour (when I looked at the EPCs they calculated at about 11 MWh/year).

My unit price is about the same (hard to believe but true)
What has happened is that I now have a more transparent bill that shows the meter charge (£60/year)
Assume that over the next twenty years energy prices triple to £0.30/kWh (my price worked out at 10p/kWh all in last year)

A £15k load at 7.5% over 20 years will cost me £1440/year. £28500 in total.
Fuel cost is about £18000 over 20 years at 4.5 MWh/year, would have been been £43000 at 11 MWh/year.
So not having the work done would cost £25000, having it done would cost £28500. £3500 more.

I think the important thing is to know what you actually use, what you would actually save and what you think fuel price inflation will be. Overall household expenditure of 300% for fuel is probably not going to happen in 20 years, but it might.

Yes, when I had a mortgage the rate was cheap at 8% and a bit painful at 15%
Sooner or later the bank rate will rise (can't go any lower).

So with a bank rate of 0.5% and mortgage rates at about 5%, that would be £1200 a year.
If the base rate goes to even a historically low of 2%, I would imagine that mortgage rates will approach 10% (Heyek would be proud of my deregulated free market attitudes but the government prefer the control of Keynes,)

Is the GD loan based on the RPI/CPI? If so we could guess at it is about double the inflation rate, though that is only a guess. Which also implies a 50% energy reduction across the board.

I have been thinking about the implications of the Green Deal for those already in energy poverty.

Suppose a household was sold Green Deal measures at apparently no cost, then the cost of their energy bills has to go up to repay it BUT they already cant afford heating so the savings are not realised

Outcome is too horrible to think about but the energy that they do will be even more expensive than their neighbor without Green Deal

This is exactly the opposite of Robbin Hood, bloomin robbin the poor making them poorer, it should be illegal in my view.

I predict many house buyers will want sellers to pay off the green deal. However it seems you're still liable for the interest if you repay early...

http://www.which.co.uk/energy/creating-an-energy-saving-home/guides/the-green-deal-explained/green-deal-loans-and-finances/

Quote:

Can I pay off a Green Deal loan early?

Yes. Early repayment fees will be small when the Green Deal plan duration is 15 years or less. But for Green Deals of longer than 15 years there is an additional issue to be aware of that could be very significant, depending on the terms offered.

Should you wish to repay your Green Deal early, for example when you move house if the buyer does not want to take on the Green Deal, your provider is allowed to charge you a substantial fee for early repayment if they want. This is because under the regulations for the Green Deal the provider is entitled to claim for the interest that would have been paid by you should the Green Deal have run its course.

Posted By: tonyThat just killed it stone dead, well found!!

Mentioned this a while back, but not many picked up on it.
I bet it is not mentioned much in the sales patter. There should be a campaign to highlight it on the telly. Radio 4th You and Yours know about it as I mentioned it to them. But shall do it again, and again.

http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/tackling-climate-change/green-deal/6715-the-green-deal-cashback-for-energy-saving.pdf

Green deal cash back incentive to kick start the process with a little carrot for early adopters ( til budget pot runs dry)
EWI gives the best cashback £650

Still seems a over beurocratic complicated system, where middle men costs will make it a white elephant.

The GreenDeal (as it is) will be regarded as cash-cow by the largest utilities, and materials providers.
Remember Home Information Packs.......

I wonder how long it will be before we hear about 'competition in the market place reducing prices'. We certainly saw that happen with PV, it had nothing to do with global module prices (during our boom customers were paying higher than world prices).

A Green Deal related question.

I've read (somewhere) that any products/systems used for Green deal applications need to be on an *approved list*

Is this the case? and if so does anyone know how one would go about petitioning to have a product included?

Your installer will need to be a GD Approved installer, whether or not the actual products they use are, I am not sure.
What had you in mind...?

Cheers

Thanks Ted, that's just what I was after.

Daryl, it s a new product, but doesn't require any specialist application.