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Heating and cooling: Thermodynamic Panels

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      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2012 edited
     
    Ed
    Isn't it a case of the part of the panel that is not receiving light becoming a resistor and heating up? Why even small amounts of shading, say from a TV aerial mast can, in some circumstances, seriously reduce the life of a panel. Most manufacturers mention this as part of the warranty to installers if you ask them.

    Tom
    You can use snow covered panels for your cold showers, because of the energy you save shall let you have a very long one too:bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTealet you have a very long one too
    How did you know that having a long one is the secret reason? V bracing.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2012
     
    If the panels were mounted vertically on the wall of the house then snow coverage would not be an issue? My roof is already "full" (21 x PV panels and 4 x FP panels), so I would have to go for the wall mounted version anyway!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2012
     
    Out of interest Jeff, and I assume the 4 FPs are ST, do you have production data on the two systems?
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2012
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaOut of interest Jeff, and I assume the 4 FPs are ST, do you have production data on the two systems?


    Steamytea - the PV panels are made by Schuco and are 185W each. They were installed in late March 2011 and in the first 12 months generated 2969 kWh and from April to August this year have produced 1840 kWh. I estimate that we will fall some way short of last years output – probably around around 2600 kWh (unless we have an amazingly sunny winter!).

    The FP ST panels are from Filsol (company now sadly gone bust) and are the FS20 model (surface area 2 sq m). Expected output per panel per annum = 880 kWh. Therefore 4 panels : 3520 kWh. I have no way of determining the actual output.
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2012
     
    I didn't know that about filsol
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2012
     
    Are you sure Finsol are bust, web site is still in place and working!
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2012
     
    Posted By: TriassicAre you sure Finsol are bust, web site is still in place and working!


    Yes, the website is still up but the company has gone. Try ringing their number!

    Ref: http://www.solartwin.com/celebrated-uk-solar-innovator-filsol-solar-ltd-ceased-trading-on-the-leap-day-2012
    • CommentAuthorndon
    • CommentTimeJan 15th 2013 edited
     
    I have a thermo dynamic install to do in march. I have been thinking about putting some monitoring kit on it for real world data reasons. I am no geek however, so I would need some assistance in that respect. The client would be delighted to have the system fully logged. If anyone is interested then give me a shout, my email can be found on http://www.beyondthestove.co.uk/contact.html

    I can easily enough put a meter on the electric supply and a thermal meter on the primaries, I guess that that would give us a COP figure that would settle down for an average. But I feel that a bit more data would be advantageous, such as external air temp, insolation etc.
    What are your thoughts?

    Within reason I am happy to fund the monitoring kit, any help to get it up and going would be appreciated. The job is on the west coast of Scotland.

    Cheers

    Brandon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2013
     
    I would be very interested in looking at this sort of data. As a minimum you need to be logging every 10 minutes. You would really need two insolation sensors, one horizontal plane and the other set to the same angle of the panels. Panel temperatures are also worth knowing (not just the fluid temperature).
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2013
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaYou would really need two insolation sensors, one horizontal plane and the other set to the same angle of the panels
    Why 2?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2013
     
    So you can calibrate it with other data. Most solar data is collected on a HP, but most modules are anything but, so one or the other does not give a very clear picture of what is going on. Just leads to all that 'East West Which Is Best' nonsense.
    • CommentAuthorSteveZ
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013
     
    Stand-alone Thermodynamic panel now available

    I have just come across this retro-fit offering, so you don't need a new HW cylinder. No ideas on prices, though

    I wonder if they will supply just the Magic Box and connect it to a ground source refrigerant-filled set of pipes?

    Usual disclaimer - No connection with the company.

    http://www.thermodynamicheatingsystems.co.uk/magic-thermodynamic-box/
  14.  
    Thanks SteveZ, any chance of someone ringing for prices? I can't ring the 0800 number.

    In the video they claim a COP of 4 just after saying that it produces HW at 55C day and night and on the website they talk of a COP range of 3 - 7 but I can't find any reference to it being tested to any EN standard.

    These companies would really do themselves a favour if they could cite independent testing to back up their claims and lose the "magic box" bit.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013
     
    Posted By: Chris P Baconany chance of someone ringing for prices?
    They will want to send a salesman around.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013
     
    Why do they call it magic? Is there really a demographic that this appeals to?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013
     
    Posted By: RobinBIs there really a demographic that this appeals to?
    Sadly yes, easier to spell than Carnot as well.
    I saw a stick on the back of a car today saying:
    'It's a witch thing, you wouldn't understand'
    I do, now I am off to feed the unicorns on beans :wink:
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013
     
    Posted By: SteamyTea
    Posted By: Chris P Baconany chance of someone ringing for prices?
    They will want to send a salesman around.


    This is what I've been waiting for (see my post Sept 22nd)! Tried ringing. Phone rings but no answer! Anyone else tried?
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013
     
    rings out then the 'disconnected' tone.... ?
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013
     
    Posted By: RobinBWhy do they call it magic? Is there really a demographic that this appeals to?


    Agree, "magic" sounds rather corny. Presumably designed to have appeal to the masses? It will be interesting to see what calibre of salesman gets sent (if I ever get through).
    • CommentAuthorSteveZ
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    I have just filled in the enquiry form on their website, so we will see what happens ........... If I get anything useful, I'll post the details
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMar 17th 2013
     
    Posted By: SteveZI have just filled in the enquiry form on their website, so we will see what happens ........... If I get anything useful, I'll post the details


    I have done the same today!
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeMar 17th 2013
     
    Posted By: Jeff BIt will be interesting to see what calibre of salesman gets sent


    Last bloke I had trying to flog me thermodynamic panels atmitted he didn't have a clue what they were or how they worked.

    At least, I THINK he was trying to sell me thermodynamic panels. It was hard to tell exactly what he was selling.
  24.  
    It will be interesting to see if you get any reply from them.

    Their website breaks just about every rule there is to have a good website, no privacy policy, no proper contact details, no business registration number etc. etc.

    The domain name is registered to a private address in Glasgow.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 17th 2013
     
    Could be a small company struggling to start up, or could just be unaware of legislation.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMar 18th 2013
     
    Posted By: Chris P BaconIt will be interesting to see if you get any reply from them.

    Their website breaks just about every rule there is to have a good website, no privacy policy, no proper contact details, no business registration number etc. etc.

    The domain name is registered to a private address in Glasgow.


    Perhaps a bit unfair to be too sceptical at this early stage? As SteamyTea says it could be a small company just starting up. I would say they have seen the potential of a system that can bolt on to an existing installation rather than the currently available thermodynamic systems which require the customer to buy a specialised DHW cylinder.
  27.  
    Posted By: Jeff B
    Posted By: Chris P BaconIt will be interesting to see if you get any reply from them.

    Their website breaks just about every rule there is to have a good website, no privacy policy, no proper contact details, no business registration number etc. etc.

    The domain name is registered to a private address in Glasgow.


    Perhaps a bit unfair to be too sceptical at this early stage? As SteamyTea says it could be a small company just starting up. I would say they have seen the potential of a system that can bolt on to an existing installation rather than the currently available thermodynamic systems which require the customer to buy a specialised DHW cylinder.

    Yes indeed I do tend to be a sceptic, but start up companies selling non-mainstream products are exactly the ones who should be working hardest to establish their credentials and demonstrate that they are not just another fly by night, it costs nothing to put your businesses registered address and company registration number on the website.

    I do also wish that just one of the various companies who manufacture these type of panels would provide proper performance data for them. There is quite definitely a demand for this type of product but I for one am not prepared to shell out for one without better verification of their performance.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMar 18th 2013
     
    Chris P Bacon – re your point about the performance of these panels. Absolutely agree, this would be my first question followed by “and where can I go and see an installation and talk with the owner”. If they really are a new start-up company then there probably won’t be any/many installations to look at. In that case I would be happy to be a guinea pig with a very much reduced cost installation with which they could use to generate actual “in the field” data and use these in their future advertising.
  29.  
    From Googling the model number I have found another company selling the same product, they claim to have the exclusive distribution rights for Great Britain and Australia, although their website isn't any better when it comes to contact details, privacy policy etc. :devil:

    http://www.ultimasolar.co.uk/

    The good news Jeff is you can drop around to Peter Andre and ask him how's his are working!
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMar 18th 2013
     
    Posted By: Chris P BaconFrom Googling the model number I have found another company selling the same product, they claim to have the exclusive distribution rights for Great Britain and Australia, although their website isn't any better when it comes to contact details, privacy policy etc.:devil:" alt=":devil:" src="http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/devil.gif" >

    http://www.ultimasolar.co.uk/" >http://www.ultimasolar.co.uk/

    The good news Jeff is you can drop around to Peter Andre and ask him how's his are working!


    Thanks for the link. I see these guys have three "magic boxes" no less! "The Little Magic Box" , "The Big Magic Box" and the "Magic Heating Box". You couldn't make it up as they say.

    BTW this Peter Andre chappie has got their Solar PV system not the Magic Box.

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