General: Is recycled veg oil diesel fair?

1 to 30 of 30

- CommentAuthorNick Parsons
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012 edited
I've just taken my Peugeot diesel (big car - thinks it's a van!) to the garage. As the bloke looked at the problem he said ''this is the one that runs on bio-diesel (recycled chip fat) isn't it?''. I asked why he remembered. ''My skin, my clothes - everything - stank of it for days after I changed your injector pump recently.'' His whole life was ruled by recycled chp fat! Should we be inflicting this 'alternative after-shave' on the world at large in the cause of green-ness?!!
- CommentAuthortony
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012
NO! it is said to be low carbon but it sends up just as much CO2 and so the definition of carbon emissions is incorrect.

No! It is said to be green, well yes but there will be problems and indeed there are already problems in other countries relating to the use of land for fuel or food and for this reason I wouldn't use it

No! It is said to be more sustainable, if we cant all use it is not sustainable, neither is oil but we still have our collective heads in the sand on that one.

Thanks for raising this one it is going to be FUN.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012 edited
Posted By: tony

No! It is said to be more sustainable, if we cant all use it is not sustainable.

The mind set of one thing to answer all problems is just so unrealistic and wrong that I hope I have misunderstood Tony. Diversity is always going to be the key.

Recycled oil is probably better than pouring it a way but it does smell a bit. My neighbour uses it and it always smells like a BBQ has gone by

Jonti
- CommentAuthorNick Parsons
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012
''Thanks for raising this one it is going to be FUN.''

Almost wishing I hadn't, now, Tony!!
But is everything you say relevant to my OP? I use bio-diesel made from *recycled* chip fat, so where is the issue of ''the use of land for fuel or food'' come in? (In thiss particular microcosm, I mean).

And you say ''it sends up just as much CO2 ''. So maybe I should not kid myself that it's better, but why not use it if it is not *worse* than that which I would use anyway?

Nick
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012 edited
Posted By: Nick ParsonsAnd you say ''it sends up just as much CO2 ''
But like all biofuel, exactly that amount of CO2 has already been, or will eventually be, re-absorbed. Unlike fossil oil, whose CO2 is entirely nett-added to the atmosphere, and never re-absorbed. So there is a real and substantial difference.

And what happens to all biomass if it's not burnt? It's going to oxidise back to CO2 by some route, sooner or later. The only way to prevent that is to sequester the biomass - but no-one's going to sequester chip fat. So you might as well burn it - makes no difference in the long run.

Tony's position I think admits the above, but is worried about the instant-add of CO2 from biofuel, compared with the very slow corresponding re-absorbtion. To Tony, I think it's that disparity, leading to nett-addition for a long time until it all evens out, which we can't afford just at present. But I don't understand why Tony thinks that leaving it to rot instead is really much better.

And there are other issues against biofuel, esp palm-oil, too.
- CommentAuthorNick Parsons
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012 edited
''And there are other issues against biofuel, esp palm-oil, too.'' Yes, and those issues would be very relevant in a thread entitled, for example, 'is biofuel fair?''. Less so in a thread relating solely to recycled veg oil bio-diesel. Sorry!

Edit: And FT, you say: ''.... instant-add of CO2 from biofuel'' . Surely ''instant-add of CO2 from 'anyfuel' ''
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012 edited
Chip fat is usually palm oil, unless it's specially something else. And palm oil really is the worst, creating havoc and forest destruction throughout the tropics. Beside palm oil, all other biofuels seem benign. But once it's there, might as well use it.
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012
Posted By: Nick ParsonsFT, you say: ''.... instant-add of CO2 from biofuel'' . Surely ''instant-add of CO2 from 'anyfuel' ''
True, both are instant, but what happens next? With fossil that's it, but with biofuel there's still re-absorbtion sooner or later. Tony says yes, but not soon enough, so don't bank on that.
- CommentAuthortony
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012
I see it as being unfair to third world countries who will end up with not enough food as a result of their governments greed for western income from bio oils

We may not realise it yet but an awful lot of oil is now used once and changed as it is worth more as a fuel than as cooking oil.

It is not fair because the treasury looses out on the tax, the rest of us get the smells (smells = voc = pollution) the loop hole will get closed if the second hand oil industry gets too big and there is already a bio fuel industry starting to grow that impacts food production, is that fair? or is it simply a consequence of economics in the western world?
- CommentAuthorNick Parsons
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012 edited
''It is not fair because the treasury looses out on the tax''

The bio-diesel manufacturer from which I buy mine pays excise duty. How is the treasurer losing out?

''Chip fat is usually palm oil, unless it's specially something else''

Sorry, then, my mistake. I thought it was rape-seed oil.
- CommentAuthorJTGreen
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012
And even if it is palm oil (would like to see evidence of that vs. rape seed and other sources for chip shop oil) that's a separate issue to do with food supply. At the point at which the waste from chip shops is recycled as bio-diesel it is simply waste to be dealt with.
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012 edited
http://www.prepoils.co.uk/en/prep-high-performance-oils/the-range/prep-palm
"Palm Oil is the fish and chip shop favourite as it is considered as one of the best oils for frying for it can resist high temperatures and is perfect for use within gas fryers. It has a neutral taste and odour, is high in antioxidants and contains less than 1% trans fatty acids."
Still, that's just their sales chat - may well be mainly rape seed.
Point is, once it's there, might as well use it for fuel.
- CommentAuthortony
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012
Not if it only used once so that it can be recycled!
- CommentAuthorJames Norton
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012
...relax of course its fair... nobody grow crops for Nick so he can use the oil after some in a chip shop, an how can you sequester a chip shop... Not necessarily a solution in itself but what is....?

PS you should try Steve Plain near us for Peugeot servicing, been looking after our mixed fleet for years and is a 'Peugeot Specialist'

J
- CommentAuthorHairlocks
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012
I thought reusing oil too many times in deep fat fryers was also bad (worse) for your heath then changing it regularly? I use corn oil at home for its better heat properties.

I think the old chipshop oil should be used as bio diesel, but only locally on the small scale.
- CommentAuthorTimber
- CommentTimeAug 31st 2012
A mate runs on virgin oil in his car. It works for the minority who have a suitable car (i.e. a fuel pump that can cope with running on oil. It most definately is not for everyone, and the use of land for fuel is not good IMO.

I always chuckle though, watching him 'fill up' at the local cash and carry or supermarket.

Used oil should be looked at with care, it needs a fair bit of processing before it can be used safely, and again there is no way I would put it in a modern diesel car.

I do hope diesel cars fall out of favour soon, I hate the damn things (although I do have one, but not out of choice).

As for fair... yes I think it is fair. If you can be bothered to collect, process and use it, then fair play. It shouldn't be made available to the masses though.
- CommentAuthorNick Parsons
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
''PS you should try Steve Plain near us for Peugeot servicing, been looking after our mixed fleet for years and is a 'Peugeot Specialist' ''

Hmm, yes, the thought occurred recently out of dim memory. Will contact you for details.

N
- CommentAuthorSeret
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
It's not just fair, but using a waste stream to replace a fossil fuel is positively to be encouraged. It can't possibly be any worse than digging up more oil to do the same job. Anything which replaces geologically sequestered carbon with carbon that's already cycling is a net win.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
Posted By: SeretAnything which replaces geologically sequestered carbon with carbon that's already cycling is a net win.

Not totally disagreeing with you, but you have to separate the effects of raising CO2 in the atmosphere and the slow process of sequestration, whether on the Earth's surface or underneath it. What that bit about 'how many trees would it take to...' was taking a stab at.
Does anyone know how much energy it takes to convert old chip fat to bio-diesel? Seem to remember that when I made some at university as part of the biomass module that it look a lot, but no one measured it.
There was also a recent paper claiming that carbon black particles in the atmosphere do not reduce temperatures as much as first thought: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6098/1078. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing though.
- CommentAuthorPeter_in_Hungary
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
Posted By: SteamyTeaDoes anyone know how much energy it takes to convert old chip fat to bio-diesel?

Do you mean 'chip fat' or old cooking oil? If its cooking oil then it should not be too much because here a while ago for a short time cheapo cooking oil was actually cheaper than diesel fuel and some were mixing it at various %ages and just driving away. you could see folk pushing trolly loads of the stuff out of the supermarket, mind you this was in the summer and by the time the cold weather came the price of cooking oil had risen above diesel so the waxing/thickening issue was never a problem. (BTW cooking oil is now about 5% more than diesel and there was a rumor that the authorities orchestrated the price rise as the easiest way to stop the use of (tax free) cooking oil as road fuel)
- CommentAuthorjamesingram
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012 edited
does anyone know if there are other uses for 'recycled veg oil' that dont involve burning it ? this would change things a bit, .
I used biodeisel for a bit when it first popped it's head up in the UK several years back, had trouble with my motors over time ,also trouble with quality/availability of supply. So went back to deisel .
Thinking along the same lines a Tony's points.
If the message goes out that a producted is the 'new green alternative' so inclined people will take it up in the belief they're doing their bit. This then resulted in a market developing that goes beyond the original idea , eg. 'recycled veg oil' and heads into the bio oil verses land for food, money making venture , which is clearly a problem.
Even so I think it's fine as an alternative to deisel , as Jonti said "Diversity is always going to be the key."
just important to keep the message sent out to the public consumer clear, scaling up biofuel to take over from
crude oil wont work ; investment in efficiency , 'designed in' consumption reduction would be money better spent.

Another point , would be, who we give our money to. I'd much rather give it to to a small scale biodeisel setup
(veg oil processor/farmer and those in that chain ) than those in the Crude oil business.
lets hope they're not one in the same .

(Similiar to the urban wood burning conumdrum , I think )
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
Posted By: jamesingramdoes anyone know if there are other uses for 'recycled veg oil' that dont involve burning it

Used to be used as animal feed, but not sure if that is legal now because of disease control, something to do with giving pigs sausages.

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryDo you mean 'chip fat' or old cooking oil?

Any and all really.
- CommentAuthorSeret
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
The bottom line is that the folks who're burning cooking oil biodiesel would be burning normal diesel otherwise, which is undeniably worse. I don't think anyone is suggesting this is a long-term solution to transport fuels, but it is a practical measure that's available now and works with the current vehicle fleet. Switching to different energy carriers should be done as part of natural attrition of the fleet, and when the appropriate technologies are mature.

ST: don't know about the embodied energy exactly, but normal refining is pretty intensive, and I know a company up in London who run their operation from a railway arch, so it can't be too hardcore.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
Posted By: SeretST: don't know about the embodied energy exactly, but normal refining is pretty intensive, and I know a company up in London who run their operation from a railway arch, so it can't be too hardcore.

I shall try and look it up when back at the university in a month if I remember.
Generally small scale energy production is pretty energy intensive, and almost certainly a batch process, so even worse than a large scale refinery (I grew up living on refineries around the world, they still hold a fascination).
- CommentAuthorGavin_A
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
the energy consumption of that process is negligible, it's largely filtration, addition of catalyst, mixing, seperation etc.

I suppose there's heating involved to get rid of any water, but that's about it in significant energy inputs at that stage.
- CommentAuthorGavin_A
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
Posted By: tonyNo! It is said to be more sustainable, if we cant all use it is not sustainable

This is one of the stupidest statements I've ever seen on this forum.

It's hard to know where to start when people post up such complete rubbish tbh.
- CommentAuthorrangichangisam
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
Hi- Don't anyone kid themselves that running on used veg oil is more sustainable than diesel.

I run on used veg oil- the reason? - its cheaper.

Why is is it not more sustainable than diesel you may ask, answer... because pretty much ALL used veg oil ends up in the diesel supply anyway. Say you fill up with 50 litres of diesel, guaranteed that at least half a litre of that is veg oil, more in other countries. By running on pure used veg oil or biodiesel all you are doing is burning veg oil that otherwise would have been burnt in any case. The veg oil that doesn't enter the diesel supply generally ends up being sprayed on to coal to add to its calorific value before it gets burnt in power stations.

I guess there is some merit in bypassing the likes of Shell etc and cutting down the amount of 'fuel miles' by buying locally but that is about it.
- CommentAuthorGavin_A
- CommentTimeSep 1st 2012
Posted By: rangichangisamHi- Don't anyone kid themselves that running on used veg oil is more sustainable than diesel.

I run on used veg oil- the reason? - its cheaper.

Why is is it not more sustainable than diesel you may ask, answer... because pretty much ALL used veg oil ends up in the diesel supply anyway. Say you fill up with 50 litres of diesel, guaranteed that at least half a litre of that is veg oil, more in other countries. By running on pure used veg oil or biodiesel all you are doing is burning veg oil that otherwise would have been burnt in any case. The veg oil that doesn't enter the diesel supply generally ends up being sprayed on to coal to add to its calorific value before it gets burnt in power stations.

I guess there is some merit in bypassing the likes of Shell etc and cutting down the amount of 'fuel miles' by buying locally but that is about it.

Fair comment.
- CommentAuthorfostertom
- CommentTimeSep 3rd 2012 edited
Well that changes everything - the only remaining merit then, yes, being
Posted By: rangichangisamI guess there is some merit in bypassing the likes of Shell etc and cutting down the amount of 'fuel miles' by buying locally but that is about it.

Anyway, traditionally, F&C was cooked in animal lard, and the best still is, can't beat it. I bet a great deal of 'recycled veg oil' has lots of lard in it.
- CommentAuthorNick Parsons
- CommentTimeSep 3rd 2012
I love the idea of fuel you can slice into your tank.....

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