Green Building Forum - Are wind farms saving or killing us? Tue, 09 Jun 2026 10:55:44 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156522#Comment_156522 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156522#Comment_156522 Mon, 17 Sep 2012 00:34:27 +0100 jiminyrock Posted By: Brianwilson We surely need to recognise and react to the impact of known hazards rather than speculate on totally unsupported possible future health impact claims.

All very well... ...but, for example, this sort of approach would permit the use of a substance like asbestos until the evidence emerges for its harm.. ..again it takes many years for it to cause terminal diseases like mesothelioma, and years for the corresponding evidence to convince us of that fact. Such toxicity that emerges over time, and that is caused by old or cumulative chronic exposure by its very nature takes a long time to accrue.]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156593#Comment_156593 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156593#Comment_156593 Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:07:45 +0100 SteamyTea http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mqmyw]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156595#Comment_156595 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156595#Comment_156595 Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:49:30 +0100 Dominic Cooney
That picture shows what looks to me to be an old Proven 6kW turbine and my estimate from the picture is that is between 100 and 200m distance. A turbine of such a small size would not produce "infrasound". I would be very surprised if the noise from it can be heard at all, ever, at this distance (unless there is something technically wrong with it, e.g. freewheeling often in high winds due to G59 relay tripping out or suchlike).

How can an article like this possibly compare a turbine of this scale with a 1.5 megawatt machine?
It is so ridiculously far the other way that it makes any serious discussion of the issue impossible.

That woman may have had a similar reaction to a conservatory that she didn't want her neighbour to build.
Some neighbours are like this, ruins their life if you do anything at all.
Maybe we should ban conservatories? (or 'tories for short)]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156596#Comment_156596 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156596#Comment_156596 Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:54:45 +0100 Gavin_A Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156617#Comment_156617 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156617#Comment_156617 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:14:37 +0100 CWatters
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=47115

I'm not convinced small turbines can cause health problems but jury still out on the large ones.]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156628#Comment_156628 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156628#Comment_156628 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:02:56 +0100 gustyturbine Gusty.]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156630#Comment_156630 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156630#Comment_156630 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:28:17 +0100 jms452 Posted By: jiminyrockAll very well... ...but, for example, this sort of approach would permit the use of a substance like asbestos until the evidence emerges for its harm.. ..again it takes many years for it to cause terminal diseases like mesothelioma, and years for the corresponding evidence to convince us of that fact. Such toxicity that emerges over time, and that is caused by old or cumulative chronic exposure by its very nature takes a long time to accrue.

Well given the number of people killed by burning fossil fuels (particulates mainly as climate change is hard to put numbers on) the example seems more like continuing to use asbestos because we are worried about some peripheral issues with alternatives (that exceptionally rarely kill anyone).

http://www.catf.us/resources/publications/files/The_Toll_from_Coal.pdf

I continue to be amazed that people rarely compare the environmental impact between technologies and instead compare technologies to an idyllic panacea (i.e. no power generation needed).

Big engineering projects impact people and the environment - shock horror :cry:]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156634#Comment_156634 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156634#Comment_156634 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:32:42 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: jms452Big engineering projects impact people and the environment - shock horror
I suppose that we should ask people what they want and then see if it is achievable rather than rely on planners, councils, people with other vested interests etc.
Was chatting to someone and he was very good at saying what he did not like, i.e. small town housing, building in the countryside, lack of community and how it was all big businesses fault (as if they wanted all those unsold 1 bed city-centre flats) or the council, but he also did not want the countryside ruined. I pointed to a field, just one, and pointed out that it could easily house 20,000 people and apart from needing a new road it would not affect the area any. We have huge amounts of land but little imagination other than to cram people into smaller and smaller places and build new ghettos.

I think we should compare technologies against coal generation as that is currently our most sustainable as a nation, then see if we can do better.]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156637#Comment_156637 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156637#Comment_156637 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:06:02 +0100 Brianwilson One disturbing comparison is wind versus gas or biomass. Wind zero particulates per Gj of energy, N.G. powerplant .1g/Gj ( Wikipedia data) and a current biomass proposal in Scotland details 1,015g/Gj (10,000 times higher than equivalent gas), applicant for biomass plant states hope for these biomass plants to be replicated across Scotland to replace fossil fuel. Application details PM pollution 150mg/ cubic metre with 6,771 cubic metres per Gj. Compare 6771 cubic metres of air pollution per Gj against the 272 stated for gas. Particulates are rated the most hazardous air pollutant by WHO with no established minimum safe level so priority should surely be to embrace the technologies producing least PM per unit of energy .
Just spotted two very large offshore wind turbine bases being transported North along Yorkshire Coast ,do folk consider offshore wind creates problems?]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156641#Comment_156641 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156641#Comment_156641 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:28:33 +0100 gustyturbine Gusty. :confused:]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156657#Comment_156657 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156657#Comment_156657 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 20:48:15 +0100 jms452 Posted By: Brianwilson(10,000 times higher than equivalent gas)

Gas is pretty 'clean' in terms of particulates but I must admit that while I don't agree with all your biomass statements the recent threads highlighting particulates do highlight that biomass is a resource to be used sparingly rather than a business as usual. Personally I think that if renewables start to take a significant share of generation we will need gas for at least a good few decades until energy storage catches up.]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156662#Comment_156662 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156662#Comment_156662 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:50:22 +0100 CWatters http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/2012/many-were-in-favour-of-the-windfarm-until-they-had-to-live-with-it-australia/?var=wts

Selected quotes:

"Many of these people were in favour of the wind farm until they had to live with it."

"In July 2011, after the Waterloo wind farm had been operating for about eight months, an Adelaide University survey sent to 75 households within 5km of the Waterloo wind farm had 48 respondents, an extremely high response rate. Seventy per cent were moderately to severely affected by the wind turbine noise."

"Four households who lived between 3-4.5km from the turbines have had to leave their home in order to get enough sleep. Two of these have bought houses in other towns. Two other households who cannot afford to buy another home are living in a shed and in a caravan. Other families remain sleep deprived and sick in their own homes, waiting for the EPA to act."]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156663#Comment_156663 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156663#Comment_156663 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 22:21:43 +0100 jamesingram Police and other emergency services zooming past my house throughout the night and various other cars on the A4, occasional road rage row for entainment. Constant planes (usually 10 ish in view) flying over head til 11 pm , Great western train line 2 streets away , M4 1/2 mile away , constant drone. Mars factory and SSE biomass plant 1/2 mile away constant drone.
The Joys of suburban life , just takes a while to get use to it :bigsmile:]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156667#Comment_156667 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156667#Comment_156667 Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:06:50 +0100 SteamyTea
I agree with Gusty and when I talk to people that like business as usual they seem to highly recommend Nuclear and Gas. A few talk of Tidal Barrages (I point out that we can easily save 8% of our energy demand, but that is not the point) and a few others talk of Wave devices (I point out that there are none working anywhere, well almost). Hot Rocks raises its head quite often in conversation (there is a large gap between theory and practicality).
PV offers some possibility, but even if we could could cover every roof in the UK with it that would only be about 4% of our land area (assume urbanisation is 8% and 50% is covered in buildings, so that would be 10,000 km^2 ish).
There was a recent article in the IET (formally the IEEE, the people that really run the world) called 'King Coal'. There is still a lot of life in the dirty old stuff, but I think we are destined for natural gas to supply up to about 60-70% of our electrical generation in the next few decades unless nuclear gets a boost (call it a subsidy if you like) and that could supply 90% of our base load, as it should be doing.
The other way to sort the problems of electrical energy out are to either ration (some people like this idea and call it cap and trade, TEQs or 'Ding Ding I am on the bus') or to just push the price up and let individuals decide the best course for themselves (my preferred choice). None of them will be like today though.
Price of Brent Crude dropped $4 a barrel in an unexpected manner on Monday, Saudi Arabia are now talking of releasing more crude to 'stabilise the world energy price'. I don't understand it either:confused:]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156668#Comment_156668 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156668#Comment_156668 Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:21:25 +0100 CWatters Posted By: jamesingramNoise :
Police and other emergency services zooming past my house throughout the night and various other cars on the A4, occasional road rage row for entainment. Constant planes (usually 10 ish in view) flying over head til 11 pm , Great western train line 2 streets away , M4 1/2 mile away , constant drone. Mars factory and SSE biomass plant 1/2 mile away constant drone.
The Joys of suburban life , just takes a while to get use to it:bigsmile:" alt=":bigsmile:" src="https:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" >

How do you get on with the thump thump from a neighbours HiFi? Is that more annoying than the traffic?]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156680#Comment_156680 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156680#Comment_156680 Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:31:43 +0100 crusoe

jamesingram: Come on James, it's well known that a Mars a day helps you.... :bigsmile:

I have no axe to grind with turbines, just want them to be safe and not affect quality of life or health. The landscape is a different matter. As gusty says, what other options do the anti-wind lot offer outside fossil and nuclear, which is a fossil-in-waiting itself methinks?]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156734#Comment_156734 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156734#Comment_156734 Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:41:54 +0100 jamesingram Posted By: CWattersHow do you get on with the thump thump from a neighbours HiFi? Is that more annoying than the traffic?
I just turn mine up a bit louder ( sound clash styley ) :bigsmile:]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156748#Comment_156748 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156748#Comment_156748 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 00:11:04 +0100 wookey just want them to be safe and not affect quality of life or health

How safe? totally safe? fairly safe? safer than X? Define your criteria please. Not affect quality of life or health at all? or only a bit? How much is a bit? Given that they almost certainly don't _increase_ safety (directly), nor improve quality of life (if nearby) and they don't have 'no effect at all', they almost certainly reduce safety and quilty of life, but only a tiny bit. Is that OK with you? Seems to me that your criteria are useless as stated.

Steamy 'only 10,000km2'. That's a billion kWh per year (or a million MWh) if my sums are right. The UK currently uses 344 million MWh of leccy/yr. Hmm, so every roof in the country would get us to 0.3% PV generation? That seems a bit low.]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156753#Comment_156753 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156753#Comment_156753 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 05:48:01 +0100 SteamyTea 10,000 km^2 x 1,000,000 m^2 = 1x10^10 m^2
Solar is about 950 kWh.m^-2.year^-1
PV efficiency is about 0.1
9.5x10^11 kWh.year^-1

UK electrical use in 2009 was 352 TWh (3.52x10^11 kWh)]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156764#Comment_156764 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156764#Comment_156764 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:56:22 +0100 renewablejohn Posted By: SteamyTeaMy mental arithmetic is dreadful as you all know.
10,000 km^2 x 1,000,000 m^2 = 1x10^10 m^2
Solar is about 950 kWh.m^-2.year^-1
PV efficiency is about 0.1
9.5x10^11 kWh.year^-1

UK electrical use in 2009 was 352 TWh (3.52x10^11 kWh)

Concentrated Solar PV efficiency is well over 0.3 but flat panels still dominate the market]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156768#Comment_156768 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156768#Comment_156768 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:20:27 +0100 SteamyTea Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156782#Comment_156782 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156782#Comment_156782 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:50:10 +0100 RobL "Let’s give every person 10 m2 of expensive (20%-efficient) solar panels and cover all south-facing roofs. These will deliver 5 kWh per day per person."

I reckon thats 1.2*10^11 KWh, or 33% of the UK electricity demand. Seems a lot more optimisitic.

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c6/page_39.shtml]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156790#Comment_156790 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156790#Comment_156790 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:51:56 +0100 Ed Davies
Posted By: SteamyTeaUK electrical use in 2009 was 352 TWh

Each W of PV installed will produce about 800 Wh/year if installed in a reasonable location. For 25 million or so households in Britain we'd therefore need 352e12 / 800 / 25e6 = 17.6 kW of PV. At 15% efficiency that'd cover 117.33 m².

Domestic roofs won't do it though they'll make a very useful contribution. Commercial roofs and other land area would help a lot.

Of course, we really need to increase our electrical (and direct solar thermal) consumption a lot - it should be replacing fossil fuel use where ever practical.]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156808#Comment_156808 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156808#Comment_156808 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:34:08 +0100 SteamyTea
I agree that we should be electrifying, as does the IET (formally the IEE, but they would say that).]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156838#Comment_156838 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156838#Comment_156838 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:48:25 +0100 crusoe Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156848#Comment_156848 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156848#Comment_156848 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:08:58 +0100 SteamyTea So that is how it is done and how we learn, better than just saying 'I don't like it and don't believe it', or even worse accepting the outliers as the norm, the medical profession has been very guilty of this as they tend to initially do small scale tests, remember that genetic experiment that killed a couple of people and seriously maimed a few other a while back.

That is why I had a bit of a set to with Joiner about wind turbine noise and if it is really a real problem then it should be affecting any group that is tested in the same way, and that research seems to be lacking. More than willing to change my viewpoint when I have seen a well designed and repeatable experiment that shows evidence to the support the problem. But until then it is, as far as I am concerned, in the realms of 'work in progress'.]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156851#Comment_156851 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156851#Comment_156851 Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:37:31 +0100 Seret Posted By: crusoeDo you have a gold standard on safeness then wookey? Enlighten me, do. If not, I'll stick with my simple wish for safety.

This is a whole field: risk.

One rule of thumb is that anything that causes less than 1:100,000 deaths in the public and 1:10,000 deaths in workers is generally ok, with 1:1,000,000 considered good enough in all cases. The guiding principle is ALARP: As Low As Reasonably Practicable. This acknowledges that zero risk isn't possible, take a big enough sample and you'll get a surprising number of people who've died from putting their trousers on.]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156872#Comment_156872 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156872#Comment_156872 Fri, 21 Sep 2012 11:14:24 +0100 CWatters
http://www.theaustralian.com.au//news/health-science/wedge-tailed-eagle-died-after-flying-into-wind-turbine/story-e6frg8y6-1226445130017

Wedge-tailed eagle died after flying into wind turbine

by: Graham Lloyd, Environment editor
From:The Australian
August 08, 201212:00AM

A DEAD wedge-tailed eagle found at the Waterloo wind farm in South Australia had starved to death over two weeks after being struck by a wind turbine blade, a report has found.

The incident prompted calls for better monitoring of birds of prey around wind turbines and the introduction of new technology to avoid future deaths.

The juvenile male wedge-tailed eagle was found about 180m from the base of the northern-most wind turbine tower at Waterloo with a badly broken wing in April.

A post-mortem examination by the University of Adelaide found the fracture occurred two to three weeks prior to the time of death.

Continues..]]> Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156883#Comment_156883 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156883#Comment_156883 Fri, 21 Sep 2012 13:10:05 +0100 gustyturbine Are wind farms saving or killing us? https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156890#Comment_156890 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9574&Focus=156890#Comment_156890 Fri, 21 Sep 2012 14:22:56 +0100 SteamyTea