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General: Part of garden not register

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    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2012
     
    It's just been brought to me attention that part of my garden is not registered with the Land Registry.

    What do I need to do to get the land registered?
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2012 edited
     
    Sell it
    until then it doesn't matter really. Land registry drawings are so vague anyway (at least the one's I've seen) the line indicating the boundary on ours is so thick it could be a foot or two either side of the real life boundary.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2012
     
    and to be less flippant the land registry FAQs are useful.
    • CommentAuthorfinny
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2012
     
    If you have the deeds, who cares...
    If you don't the land is potentially open to someone else using it for a length of time, then claiming it.
    The land registry in England are keen for every piece of land to be registered soon and have been offering reduced fees for first title registration..give them a ring, they are very helpful
    • CommentAuthorsnyggapa
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2012
     
    It's probably relevant if we know if the garden piece is part and parcel of the main property (as in - should it have been registered at the same time as part of the same thing) or was / has that piece of land been purchased separately in the past

    how much garden are we talking about - is this a significant and identifiable piece of land on the map, or is it the thickness or minor position of the red line that's the concern?
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2012
     
    Where is it? I got the impression that everything had to be registered when it was sold, at least in England & Wales. I'm surprised your solicitor didn't bring the subject up?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2012
     
    Posted By: TriassicIt's just been brought to me attention that part of my garden is not registered with the Land Registry.

    What do I need to do to get the land registered?


    How come this is news to you? How long have you lived there? All land sold in recent decades has had to be registered.

    Are you sure you own it?

    More info might get you more advice.
    • CommentAuthornikhoward
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2012
     
    if it is demaked as yours and no one can or has contested it for 12 years you can have it added to your deeds
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2012
     
    If it turns out you don't own it...Before you try and get the land added to your deeds read the practice guides on "Adverse Possession" at the land registry web site and do some research. The land registry can sometimes be fussy about conforming to the letter of the law.
    • CommentAuthorfinny
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2012
     
    Demarking land is not enough, you need third party evidence from locals, signed affidavits from respected individuals, then you have a chance of getting a possessory title which is good only until someone with a prior deed comes along. You can insure yourself against later claims for a remarkably reasonable one-off sum, which pays out the full value of the land in the event of a prior deed coming along..
  11.  
    Hi Finny,
    I thought that once the land is registered via the land registry they guarantee title to the land. The last time I looked they had it backed by a couple of million pounds"insurance" to indemnify you if anything was contested. But before I would rely on this I would quadruple check with the land registry to be sure.

    Richard
  12.  
    From my experience Land Registry are beyond fussy and are downright awkward. We have a piece of land which was granted to the farm as part of the Enclosure Act 1792. We noticed while sorting out a road access dispute at Land Registry that the ownership of the land was blank on Land Registry records and they suggested that we apply to get it attached to our title deeds as there having a concerted effort to get all land registered. We sent in all the appropriate forms together with the Enclosure Act details and subsequent maps upto 1875 clearly showing the land as part of the estate. Land Registry came back and said insufficient proof you will need to make an adverse possession claim and if you do everyone in the area will need to be notified at your expense and if challenged you could lose your entitlement to the land.
  13.  
    Renewablejohn seems to have it about right - you need some sort of documentary evidence and not just a receipt. If you've bought it since about 1985, then did you really buy it because if you did it should be registered. If you did purchase it since then and if a solicitor did the conveyancing, ask them to sort it out at their expense - their PI insurance should cover them!
    • CommentAuthorpmusgrove
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2012
     
    Unfortunately this problem is rather common in rural areas. I have yet to find a solicitor or other conveyancing organisation that has ever been to a site to check whether the deeds or registration match what is on the land. I have had one case where the registered land didn't even cover the stuff under one part of a house that had been in location since the late 19th Century! Another problem area has been the area over culverted rivers or streams. Best advice is from windy; let the solicitor sort out the problem which was of his own making.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2012
     
    The piece of land is small about 20 by 20 foot and it was the land registry who brought the fact it was not registered to my attention. I've talked to an old neighbough of mine who will sware a Statuatory Declaration stating that the land has been part of my garden for at least 50 years (he is 80ish and was born in the house next door to the land in question).
    • CommentAuthorfinny
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2012
     
    That's good news Triassic, you will most likely be given a possessory title only, it can be converted to a full title after a defined period, think it might be nine, with no challenge. You can also buy insurance to cover it's value in the event of a prior deed or claim..try guaranteed conveyancing solutions..
  17.  
    Talking of culverts. I have a culvert which starts on my land and runs for 20mtrs then runs under neighbors land for 40mtrs. Would ownership be on a 20 / 40 split or do I own the full 60 mtr bearing in mind the farm constructed the culvert originally as part of the enclosure act works.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2012 edited
     
    You may only own the bit on your land but you may also have riparian rights/responsibilities..

    http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/homeandleisure/floods/31626.aspx

    Your rights and responsibilities from 2012

    Quote:

    A watercourse is any natural or artificial channel through which water flows, such as a river including where rivers flow through a culvert, brook, beck, or mill stream. If you own land adjoining a watercourse, you have certain rights and responsibilities. In legal terms you are a 'riparian owner'.

    Some of your responsibilities include:

    maintaining river beds and banks;
    allowing the flow of water to pass without obstruction;
    controlling invasive alien species such as Japanese knotweed.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: pmusgroveI have yet to find a solicitor or other conveyancing organisation that has ever been to a site to check whether the deeds or registration match what is on the land.

    I think this is expecting too much of the solicitor. Surely it is the responsibility of the buyer and seller to check that the drawings and statements that they are signing correspond to what exists in reality? And up to them (the principals) to raise any questions about errors with the solicitor rather than the other way around? That's certainly how it has worked when I have bought property. Caveat emptor.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2012
     
    Posted By: CWattersYou may only own the bit on your land but you may also have riparian rights/responsibilities

    Doesn't it depend on what flows in the culvert? If it starts on John's land and contains e.g. surface water then isn't it a drain? And as such, it would become the property of the local sewerage company where it passes under the boundary of his property (as of the change in legislation late last year). Or was that only drains in pipes?

    Of course, if it's the source of the Wyre or somesuch, then it's a different ballgame.
  21.  
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: pmusgroveI have yet to find a solicitor or other conveyancing organisation that has ever been to a site to check whether the deeds or registration match what is on the land.

    I think this is expecting too much of the solicitor. Surely it is the responsibility of the buyer and seller to check that the drawings and statements that they are signing correspond to what exists in reality? And up to them (the principals) to raise any questions about errors with the solicitor rather than the other way around? That's certainly how it has worked when I have bought property. Caveat emptor.


    Surely not. The solicitor normally initiates all the searches and checks that the seller owns the land, has the rights to sell it, what covenants exist etc. and that the buyer isn't being duped. If the solicitor has failed to do the correct searches, or has not checked that the land as advertised is all covered then I would see the solicitor as being liable.
  22.  
    djh- you're getting a bit mixed up on drains/sewers. The Sewerage Undertaker (water co) will only have a responsibility for public sewers. A (foul) drain serving a property remains that property's responsibility until another property joins it, whether it crosses others land or not, then it becomes a private sewer.
    Also until about a year ago you could get 50-1000+ properties connected to a private sewer and the Sewerage Undertaker would have no responsibility. Because this was causing huge problems with newish built estates having to share the cost of sewer repairs (because the original estate builder did such an appalling job) the situation was changed so that the definition of Public Sewer became wider - Think it is something like 5 properties connected and/or if the sewer gos under public road.

    Triassic - your land registry has got better maps than ours! to get down to 20 foot detail they must have drawn a pretty thin line on the original deed. Scale the line up from our deeds and it would be about 40 foot wide. I think you may need to check exactly what they are on about.
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: djh
    ...buyer and seller to check that the drawings...

    When doing that for the first house we bought we had to point out to our solicitor that "the area outlined in red" was in fact next door's garden and not the house (& garden) we wished to buy. :surprised:
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2012
     
    Seems this is fairly common. When we bought our farm the seller didn't check the maps with his solicitor and ended up selling us an area he wanted to keep for a building plot. Couple of years later he asked if we would give it back. I told him to ask his solicitor to buy it from us then give it to him! Not been back since.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2012
     
    Posted By: windy lambdjh- you're getting a bit mixed up on drains/sewers.

    I don't think so, I think your understanding is out of date. See this document, for example:

    http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/private-sewers-transfer-guidance110928.pdf

    I believe that if the situation is as I suggested, it would be a lateral drain and hence the responsibility of the water company as of Oct last year. But it does depend on what is in the culvert and to where it leads.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: MarkBennett
    Posted By: djhI think this is expecting too much of the solicitor. Surely it is the responsibility of the buyer and seller to check that the drawings and statements that they are signing correspond to what exists in reality? And up to them (the principals) to raise any questions about errors with the solicitor rather than the other way around? That's certainly how it has worked when I have bought property. Caveat emptor.


    Surely not. The solicitor normally initiates all the searches and checks that the seller owns the land, has the rights to sell it, what covenants exist etc. and that the buyer isn't being duped. If the solicitor has failed to do the correct searches, or has not checked that the land as advertised is all covered then I would see the solicitor as being liable.

    I suspect you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. The solicitor certainly checks all the paper and electronic records and is I think responsible for any errors in that checking. But I don't believe the solicitor is responsible for checking that the boundaries on the drawing match what is physically there on the ground. Certainly I've never known a solicitor or his agent to even visit the site, so there's no possible way they could know. If you buy "the land edged in red" then that is what you get, even if the fence is some place else.
  27.  
    Posted By: TriassicI've talked to an old neighbough of mine who will sware a Statuatory Declaration stating that the land has been part of my garden for at least 50 years (he is 80ish and was born in the house next door to the land in question).


    I have been through this, successfully. It is complicated, my understanding is below.

    When you make an application, the land reg people will come out to look at the bit of ground in question. It is good if the public are excluded from it, by a fence say. if the fence has gate, it is good if it is secured by an (old looking) padlock.
    It is good if your neighbours statement mentions these details, and for how long the public have been excluded. It is also good if you and previous occupants have clearly made use of this bit of land for something - fruit trees, patio, shed etc.

    Peter
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2012
     
    djh - Drains, yes, point taken, I knew it was changing but has changed a lot. Made the jobs of Environmental Health Officers much easier now. Water bills will go up accordingly though!
    Cheers.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeOct 11th 2012 edited
     
    I was under the impression solicitors were paid to ensure you had "good title"? They should at least check with the client that they are getting the bit of land they think they are getting, even if that just means advising the client he needs a surveyor as well.
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeOct 11th 2012
     
    Posted By: CWattersI was under the impression solicitors were paid to ensure you had "good title"? They should at least check with the client that they are getting the bit of land they think they are getting, even if that just means advising the client he needs a surveyor as well.


    What a joke! This was exposed nearly 50 years ago in the late Michael Josephs work "The Conveyancing Fraud". Solicitors shuffle bits of paper around, they won't go anywhere near a property to confirm that it even exists. Of course, with almost all properties being registered, there is no need to check that the title is good, because the government guarantees that it is good.

    In the unlikely event that they are dealing with one of the few remaining unregistered properties they do need read through the previous conveyance and epitome of title, but in most cases title is very simple. Good title just means that there is a credible paper trail of transfers dating back to about 1925.

    I hold conveyancing solicitors in very low regard, but I'm really annoyed at the moment. We're trying to sell my parents property, but the buyers solicitors secretary (the one who actually does the conveyancing) is being a lying incompetent and trying to get my parents to pay for us to do her job. Net result will be a long delay in the transfer or probably the failure of the sale.

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