Home  5  Books  5  Magazines  5  News  5  GreenPro  5  HelpDesk  5  Your Cart  5  Register  5  Green Living Forum
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



green Building Press Book offers
Free UK delivery on all our books...

 Ecohouse 2 by Sue Roaf
Just £26.98

Ecohouse 2 by Sue Roaf


 Building With Cob
Just £25.00

building with cob


More great priced ecobuilding books here





Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthorJT101
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2012 edited
     
    Hello all

    Really getting into the standard heat loss calculations now. However, I'm a little unsure if I'm dong the annual energy consumption based on degree days correctly .

    So, I have a max heat demand (for the coldest day of the year -5C, and internal temperature of 21C) of: 5.39kW
    Degree days: 1987
    Max temperature difference = 26C

    The formula Ive found is: E = S (AU) x Dd x 24
    S (AU) = Max heat demand / temperature difference (kW/deg C)
    Dd = Degree days

    E = (5.39/26) x 1937 x 24 = 4624 kWh


    Is this the correct formula?
    Should I be using the max delta T based on the lowest temperature for the year as the temperature value?
    Should I be using my normal max heat loss value?


    Many thanks
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2012
     
    Not quite. The max temperature difference tells you the total size of heating system you require. To figure out the total heating demand for the year in kWh you need to know the rate your building loses heat in W K<sup>-1<sup>. This will be the sum of your fabric heat loss and ventilation heat loss rates. You then multiply that by 24 times your HDD to get the heat demand in kWh. Add your DHW, subtract any free gains and multiply by the system's efficiency to find out how much fuel you'll use.
    • CommentAuthorJT101
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2012
     
    Ah great Secret, thanks.

    Well that's my first question. 5.39kW is the sum of my fabric heat loss (3.99kW) and ventilation loss (1.40). But it's based on a Delta T for the worst case scenario i.e. internal temp 21C, external temp -5C.
    So as you say, I should be using this figure for the total size of my heating system, but should I also use it in this Annual Heat Demand calculation, or should it be calculated based off of the Base Temperature or some other figure e.g. say Base T was 15.5C, and Internal T is 21C, giving me a Delta T of 5.5C. ?????

    Cheers
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2012 edited
     
    I think that you need to empirically derive your base temperature.

    i.e. plot the data - say in imeasure and look at which gives you the best fit.

    The base temperature effects the degree days number and takes care of the deta T i.e. HDD15

    Technically the 26C in your equation should be the difference between your degree day base temperature and the lower temperature your max heat loss is derived at.

    so for HDD15 the heat required to keep your house at 21 is:

    E = (5.39/20) x 1937 x 24 = 4624 kWh

    then as seret says add your DHW.

    I think that (fixed) free gains are included in your hdd base temperature if work it out from real data.
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2012 edited
     
    You don't use the delta T at all to work out the demand.

    As an example, the data for my house (1947 semi, pretty dodgy insulation):

    Fabric heat loss coefficient: 168WK-1
    Ventilation heat loss coefficient: 82WK-1
    Whole house heat loss coefficient: 250WK-1

    Max internal-external delta T = 25K, so system has to be at least 5.99KW.

    My HDD at 15.5 = 2020

    So 250WK-1 * 24h * 2020 HDD = 12120kWh per year.

    Minus internal gains, plus cooking and DHW and factoring in boiler efficiency gives me a total fuel demand of about 16.6MWh per year. Much work to be done obviously, but that is down from 21MWh a couple of years ago so I'm happy.

    I agree with jms452 that ideally you should work out your base temp to suit your actual house, but it's a bit of a trial and error process. I think 15.5 is a good figure to go for to start with unless you're in a very modern well insulated place. For my traditionally built place I've found it actually agrees with real-world data quite well.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 19th 2012
     
    Posted By: SeretYou don't use the delta T at all to work out the demand.

    Yes, starting from scratch this is right.

    However, if you have somebody else's calculation of the heat loss rate at maximum temperature difference (e.g., done by the plumber sizing the heating system who's taking the fabric and ventilation heat losses into account but not told you their numbers) then dividing the maximum heat-loss rate by the maximum temperature difference to work back to the heat-loss coefficient (the sum of the conductive and ventilation heat losses for each degree Celsius) seems reasonable.

    Also, doing it experimentally this sort of calculation would make sense. If you pick a chilly time and find the average outside temperature for a period (say a day or two) and the total energy use of the house you could divide energy use by the time period to get the average power and divide that by the temperature difference to get the heat-loss coefficient.

    As long as you're keeping the inside of the house at a steady temperature (so there's not more or less energy stored in the internal building fabric to take into account) and the outside temperature doesn't vary too much (so there's not a great change in the energy in the more external parts of the building fabric) this should give you a reasonable estimate. A run of chilly, cloudy (so it doesn't get too cold at night), dry and not too windy days would probably be best.
    • CommentAuthorJT101
    • CommentTimeOct 20th 2012 edited
     
    Ok, then. I've realised what i'm missing. Heat loss coefficient. I've searched through books and online, and can't seem to find any decent info.

    I've calculated all my heat loss in Watts, using Q = ∆T * U * Area. Not Watts / Deg K.

    So how do I calculate heat loss coefficient from scratch. Do I just omit ∆T from the above calculation?


    Many thanks
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 20th 2012
     
    Posted By: JT101Heat loss coefficient. I've searched through books and online, and can't seem to find any decent info.

    Depends what you mean by heat loss coefficient I think.
    • CommentAuthorJT101
    • CommentTimeOct 20th 2012
     
    I have no idea, that's why I'm asking. I hadn't even come across this figure before.

    All I know is, that everyone on this forum tells me I need W/deg K to use in my annual heat consumption calculation. Which I don't have, and am not sure how you calculate
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 20th 2012 edited
     
    Right

    Watts per Kelvin or W/K or W.K^-1

    All it is is the heat flux at each temperature difference.

    So say your wall looses 10 W when the difference between inside and outside (the deltaT) is 1 K (or °C but not °K) and it looses 20 W when it is 2 K different, 30 W when it is 3 K different and so forth.

    HDDs are a number that describes the K bit but on a day basis (you can if you want reduce it all to SI units so a day is 86400 seconds but will not help you any here, just remember it is per day)

    So if your HDD is 10, that means it has a delta T of 10 K for 1 day (sometimes you get monthly figures so it may be something like March 270 @12HDD. All that means is that it is the sum of the daily figures for that month when the base is 12).

    So if you are looking to find the kWh (which are just kJ really) you need to do a bit of equation rearranging.

    So if your wall looses 10 W/(m^2.K) for 1 day, that will be 10W.Day, that will be 240 Wh or 0.24 kWh for every square meter and for every 1 K temperature difference.

    So if your HDD is 270 for the month and your losses are 0.24 kWh you just multiply the two together for the months losses 64.8 kWh.

    Not sure if that will help or hinder.
  1.  
    Posted By: JT101Ok, then. I've realised what i'm missing. Heat loss coefficient. I've searched through books and online, and can't seem to find any decent info.

    I've calculated all my heat loss in Watts, using Q = ∆T * U * Area. Not Watts / Deg K.

    So how do I calculate heat loss coefficient from scratch. Do I just omit ∆T from the above calculation?


    Many thanks


    Yes, you got it.

    Heat loss coefficient = U x Area you can calculate this.

    Also heat loss coefficient = Q / delta T you can measure this.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 20th 2012
     
    Posted By: JT101I've calculated all my heat loss in Watts, using Q = ∆T * U * Area. Not Watts / Deg K.

    So how do I calculate heat loss coefficient from scratch. Do I just omit ∆T from the above calculation?

    Yes, for the definition of heat-loss coefficient I was using.

    (I haven't come across another definition but wouldn't be at all surprised if somebody uses the term differently.)
    • CommentAuthorJT101
    • CommentTimeOct 20th 2012
     
    Thanks guys. That's really helped me out. I can't believe how hard it was to find such info. No where I could find on google, in the green building bible, or in this forum. Maybe it's called something else.

    Just to finalise my calcs, can I just verify if specific heat demand (e.g. for passive house 15kWh/m2.K) is based on Treated Floor Area?
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2012
     
    Posted By: JT101Just to finalise my calcs, can I just verify if specific heat demand (e.g. for passive house 15kWh/m2.K) is based on Treated Floor Area?

    Yes, but for passivhaus the heat demand is whatever PHPP tells you it is, not some other number that you work out in some other way.
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press