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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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Renewable Energy: Has the sun set on solar power?

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    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesAnother fag-packet calculation: ignoring MCS and FITs you could probably do a DIY install for around Ă‚ÂŁ1000/kW (Ă‚Âą), particularly on a new build where you can reclaim the VAT and you have roof access sorted, electricians in, etc, anyway. That kW would likely produce about 800 kWh/year. If, as is not usually the case, you could make good use of all of that and your electricity costs Ă‚ÂŁ0.12/kWh that would save you Ă‚ÂŁ96/year giving break-even in 10.5 years with no dependence on the whims of future governments.


    Does this mean Monbiot will be paying up?
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2013
     
    fostertom,

    I think you mean Chester :devil:
    Shrewsbury is a town!
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2013
     
    Windy. Wind farms need maintenance, that has to be done on-site, and therefore provides at least some reasonably local jobs. I don't know how many turbines-per-bloke is reasonable these days.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2013 edited
     
    The construction of the new wind farms between Thurso and Wick have provided steady business for the caravan park I'm on and its associated B&B. Ditto the bar and restaurant across the road. Most of the workers are not local local but from other parts of Scotland as far as I can see. Lot of contractor's vehicles with “Fort William” on them. Even before the recent building spurt there was quite a lot of B&B business from maintenance and development on the older farms.

    Be interesting the compare the employment per average MW for, say, gas vs wind.

    OTOH, I think the idea that it's good to provide jobs is totally back to front - but maybe a separate thread if anybody wants to discuss that.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013
     
    Ed, If there is so much business for the B&Bs from maintenance and development of wind farms it sure points to the jobs not being very local.
    OK, so a job is a job local or not BUT when the developer comes along and says the wind farm will provide 10 maintenance jobs he forgets to say that those 10 people are already employed maintaining the existing farms and just have another location to visit on their schedule - not actually any new jobs, just a bit busier for those already employed? The maintenance teams aren't local if they stay in the local B&Bs.

    Fostertom- It is Chester, although I wouldn't recommend it (shooting a Welshman) don't think Chester Constabulary recognise the defence these days.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013
     
    Windy, the company are Norwegian (and owned by their government) not Swedish. And the control centre is in Rheidol power station (about 30 miles away) not Shrewsbury. :wink: There are precisely zero local jobs provided by the wind farm. No new jobs are provided at Rheidol. There might be 0.1 fte extra work for WPD. I'm not sure where the maintenance crews are based, but again not local. I'll try to find out. These particular 10 turbines do seem to require a high degree of maintenance - they are being worked on almost every month.

    I would really like to know exactly where the Telegraph's 12,000 jobs are in the wind industry. The last report I looked at that detailed the number of jobs in the 'green economy' was laughable. They are mostly council/contractor refuse collectors who are all now classed as 'recycling operatives' and huge numbers for people based in the City of London.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013 edited
     
    If you lectured on a renewable energy course for 2 hours a week for 30 weeks a year, I suspect that would be counted as 'a job'. So that is at least 10 jobs at Falmouth.
    A mate of mine works on 'green energy projects that are doomed to failure', there are about 20 of them at his place. I think the Wave Hub has a full time person (though no one has plugged in yet, maybe soon), then there is all the plumbers fitting condensing boilers, electricians helping out, the insulation crews, organic farmers and anyone that has sold some fuel with bio-diesel or ethanol in it.
    Just about every company I know claims to be 'green'.
    So I think there is about 30m green jobs :cool:
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013
     
    Posted By: windy lambEd, If there is so much business for the B&Bs from maintenance and development of wind farms it sure points to the jobs not being very local.
    Right, but running the B&B, etc, provides local jobs. My point is that there are indirect effects - there's some activity in the local economy which wouldn't be there without the wind farms.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013
     
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013
     
    Went round sherringham shoal visitor center a few months ago and they claim that they have about 40 (local) full time staff maintaining and administering the 88 offshore turbines. Building them took 2-3 years and a few hundred people (not local). Also supports the local harbour and a few other peripheral benefits.

    The cost was about a billion, so at best these jobs are a rather thin layer of icing on the cake.

    Using jobs to justify wind power is backwards - Its more a question of if the UK is investing in renewables it makes sense to maximize the jobs created. Possibly even following on to that exporting we need...
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013
     
    Posted By: jms452Using jobs to justify wind power is backwards
    I tend to agree with that.
    It should be better to have a generation system that is low on pollutions and low on labour.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013
     
    Ted, Swedish/Norwegian/Icelandic but not Welsh or even British so don't suppose they pay UK corporation tax. And OK Rheidol not Shrewsbury but that's not Pencader either - so the jobs still ain't local.

    Ed, I would suspect that the B&Bs serving the wind farm maintenance crews have only made up for the loss of business from the tourists no longer visiting, who knows. The B&Bs would be there anyway, may be a bit busier or a bit less so, but no new jobs because of the turbines. I do concede that there are a few redundant fishermen now employed ferrying crews off shore but they would probably be still fishing had it not been for the EU - progress ah!
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013
     
    So the Telegraph have got "12,000" jobs from the RenewableUK report: 'Wind Energy in the UK" Oct 2012

    Our estimate for UK employment figures for 2011/12 is 12,242 people as of April
    2012. This is based on the 2010 figures presented in the report ‘Working for a
    Green Britain’. This report concludes that the wind sector employed 9,756
    full-time equivalent staff. To arrive at the 2012 figure, we have analysed
    forecasting models developed for the Working for a Green Britain Volume 2
    report, using actual installation data to 2012. Revised figures will be available in
    2013 when RenewableUK commissions a comprehensive survey update to
    Working for a Green Britain.

    http://www.renewableuk.com/en/publications/index.cfm/SOI2012

    The Working for a Green Britain report, July 2011:

    http://www.renewableuk.com/en/publications/index.cfm/Working-for-a-Green-Britain-Volume-2

    This seems to be a report of 'projections' rather than firm statistics, and employment figures are based
    around a figure of 6,000 directly employed in April 2010.

    The Appendix states:
    The (survey) sample of employers was provided by RenewableUK and 561 companies
    were emailed informing them of the survey and its purpose. 253 companies
    supplied data via telephone interview.

    So the employment data is based on less than 50% of companies.

    There is also their BiGGAR report of May 2012:

    http://www.renewableuk.com/en/publications/index.cfm/BiGGAR

    which seems to state (p49) that the direct and supply chain employment in 2011 was actually only 8,640.

    I very much doubt that anywhere near 12,000 people are employed in UK wind power.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 17th 2013
     
    Don't let the REF or Telegraph know as those employment numbers would make the 'employee subsidy' worse.

    Nothing wrong with a sampling rate of 50%, would be better than most.

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