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Housing - New Build: Integrated Solar Roof

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    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2013
     
    We're planning our next self build and the chief designer (wife) hates retrofit solar PV panels ("they look like they have been plonked on the roof without any thought about the asthetics"), we're also in a National park and the South elevation of our roof faces the road and the village beyond.

    So I am looking at integrated PV systems and having searched online I'm left wondering, which systems are best? Anyone here got the latest view on the subject?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2013
     
    They tend not to perform so well as they heat up and loose a bit of efficiency.

    I would seriously consider solar slates, look like slates, integrate perfectly, more expensive,
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: tonylook like slates, integrate perfectly, more expensive,


    Yep we looke those at a recent show, vastly more expensive I would say!!
    • CommentAuthorjohndes
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2013
     
    Hi, What about a ground mounted solar array in the garden or even on another garden building
  5.  
    currently looking at a this system for a client http://www.solarworlduk.co.uk/product-range.php
    sundeck, apparently has a good name , though cant vouch for it personally ,
    they also do the full black panels which adds to the minimal look as do the premium http://www.sunpowercorp.co.uk/products/solar-panels/

    Like the look of solar slates , perhaps more thing to go wrong ?
  6.  
    Went to a Cambridge Society for the Application of Research (http://www.csar.org.uk/) talk entitled "Building Business in the Sunshine" by Stuart Elmes of Veridian Solar (http://www.viridiansolar.co.uk/). A very interesting speaker who also blogs as the Solarblogger (http://www.solarblogger.net/).

    Viridian Solar started by making solar thermal systems specifically designed for new build developments. They now do solar PV too. Gave a lot of thought to the process of including solar in new build to fit in with the various stages of the build. They look pretty good too! I have seen them on houses in Orchard Park, Cambridge.

    Might be worth a look ...
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2013
     
    Posted By: TriassicWe're planning our next self build and the chief designer (wife) hates retrofit solar PV panels ("they look like they have been plonked on the roof without any thought about the asthetics")

    SWMBO has similar views, I think. But I unaccountably go deaf whenever she expresses them :devil:
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013 edited
     
    We used a Renusol InterSole in-roof system to put 100m2 of PV on the south facing pitch of a dual-pitch roof. The North facing pitch is reclaimed clay tiles.

    We have a narrow strip of tiles around the edge of the PV so that we can finish the roof edges the same way all around. The Sanyo PV panels are flush with the tiles (ie. in place of tiles, at same height).
    I originally fancied something a bit more industrial with PV completely edge to edge (which Renusol do have solutions for) but it was difficult to fit with the rest of the building style.

    Although designed-in it doesn't really save you any money because it needs a bit more case-specific specialisation compared with the mass market, flexible, quickly fitted, no edge details of standard on-roof systems.

    What we did was all a bit of a compromise but when you are starting from having to use local clay tiles (yes, they are red), what can you do?

    I was very happy with the roofing system though. I reckon it is a lot less likely to leak or need maintenance that the rest of our roofs.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013 edited
     
    How about building your own thermal (wet) array from scratch - plenty of DIY info on the net, also see Viking House on here - behind a complete conservatory-type roof slope edge to edge top to bottom incl any valley angles etc. Fitted round the middle two thirds or whatever which wd be PV. So no flashing of build-in PVs to adjoining tiles, just into glazing bars. You cd re-think the roof structure - instead of rafters @ 400c/cs, provide e.g. widely spaced purlins only as reqd for the glazing bars and PVs. Of course you can - indeed must - ventilate copiously under all that, so ample cooling of the panels.
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2013
     
    Perhaps better to recover the heat rather than ventilate it away, Tom ?

    Or just ignore it and accept the lower efficiency - given that the input fuel source is free so who cares how efficient it is at making it's way to end use?

    Regards

    Barney
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2013
     
    Triassic

    If you're currently planning your next self build and are looking for an installation a year or two down the line, you should wait for the next generation of BIPV currently on development.

    I can't give any further details at present but these are in a different aesthetic league to what is presently available. Fully developed systems will be installed on a prototype / demonstration basis next year.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2013
     
    GaryB, any idea of the price league? Current BIPV comes at a huge price premium.
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2013
     
    Ed

    You're right - purely as a means of generating electricity, BIPV seems to be 2.5 to 3 times the cost per kWp of standard mono- or poly-crystalline panels.

    However, it depends on the cost of the fabric elements that it is displacing. Also, BIPV is normally only considered where conventional PV would not be permitted for planning or aesthetic reasons, so not directly comparable.

    The attached photo shows a BIPV glazed roof terrace. The 9 x 90 Wp panel system cost £2250 but 'replaced' about £1250 worth of laminated roof glazing, giving a nett cost of under £1250 per kWp.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2013
     
    Posted By: djhSWMBO has similar views, I think. But I unaccountably go deaf whenever she expresses them


    Have you tried discussing other solutions with a similar benefit?

    Wind turbine in garden, walls three bales thick, no hot water/windows/electricity etc. PV might seem quite attractive in comparision:devil:
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2013
     
    Posted By: jms452Have you tried discussing other solutions with a similar benefit?

    I don't want to get beaten up!

    I'm sure she'll grow to love them.
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013 edited
     
    We've tried several options, and settled on Viridian solar's UK manufactured in roof solar PV and water heating systems.

    they have 3 different sizes of panel, with SWH and PV panels the same dimensions to allow both to be mounted together without looking odd - they're fully BBA certified as the roof covering, so no back sheets, just quite an ingenius flashing kit that flashes the panels into the roof to look very similar to velux windows.

    this blog article is an install we did recently on 2 x Yorkshire Stone roofs up in hawes.

    we're now installation partners for Viridian, please get in touch if you're interested and vaguely in the north of england, otherwise viridian will no doubt find you an installer for further afield.

    it is more expensive, but does save on the roof material below, and maybe consider the less is more approach and just install a smaller system to cover your baseload and on site consumption rather than looking to stick as much as you can squeeze onto the roof.... the extra value will be added to the house to some extent anyway from the improved looks.

    https://www.leeds-solar.co.uk/
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2013
     
    Does it allow you to get around the annoying 'close to edges' problems.
    In some marginal cases it could allow for another row of panels.
    • CommentAuthorMikeRumney
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2013
     
    Posted By: barneyPerhaps better to recover the heat rather than ventilate it away, Tom ?

    Or just ignore it and accept the lower efficiency - given that the input fuel source is free so who cares how efficient it is at making it's way to end use?

    Regards

    Barney


    Wish I could say I had some data/results from our low cost "solution" that primarily dumps heat in the ground for seasonal UFH and may contribute to pre-heating heatstore ... but ladder-induced wrist fracture in January :shamed: means not commissioned yet.
    The collector is pipes run underneath about 20m2 of slates, 20mm polycyano/foil board under that and ventilation for the main roof under that.
    I think Vikinghouse has posted some pics of his version on here somewhere .......
    And ours looks like this :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2013
     
    I confess that I hate the look of solar panels on roofs and so would love some data on the kind of roof above, welldone Mike and hope the wrist mends soon (as I would like the data from your roof!!!). Did you simply fit plastic pipe to the battens? what type of pipe did you use?. I for one would be interested in how you did your installation and have been waiting for Viking House to enlighten us on his integrated solar roof.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2013
     
    Posted By: joe90I confess that I hate the look of solar panels on roofs
    Me to. They look like a roof rack and luggage on a 911
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2013
     
    LOL, your'e dead right ST could not have put it better myself.
    • CommentAuthorMikeRumney
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2013
     
    Posted By: joe90I confess that I hate the look of solar panels on roofs and so would love some data on the kind of roof above, welldone Mike and hope the wrist mends soon (as I would like the data from your roof!!!). Did you simply fit plastic pipe to the battens? what type of pipe did you use?. I for one would be interested in how you did your installation and have been waiting for Viking House to enlighten us on his integrated solar roof.


    Thanks Joe ... There's a while to wait yet ... I've yet to sort out how best to combine the various elements.
    The pipes are UFH type "Aluflex" fixed to the metal rails that replace wooden battens in the Nu-lok system.
    This pic hopefully gives an idea.
    (As it turns out this is the same section of roof as in the previous one, from the oposite direction)

    There are six "loops" in all:
    Of which four are collectors:
    two SE facing (as in pic), one SW facing, one vertical SW facing wall clad in scorched timber.
    A further coil 2m below the slab is supposed to deliver ground heat 6 months after collection by virtue of being forced to take a long path up through alternating laminations of reclaimed bricks and insulation ...
    ("AGS")
    Digging 6m down was off-budget.
    The last loop is laid immediately below the block and beam,
    (in another section of the floor, not above the delivery coil)
    as an option for heat dumping or drain-back maybe.
    It's only about £30 quids worth of redundant pipe if we don't ever use it.
    Conduit runs have gone in to take thermistors or whatever to get temp readings from the delivery coil and the roof loops ... to run pumps etc.
    Two more conduits are in place to get spot readings 2m down at the periphery of the insulated footings (inside and outside ... for data of sorts.
    We might get readings from the wall as well to compare vertical with sloping ......
    • CommentAuthorMikeRumney
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2013
     
    PS ... I recommend using a "mediaeval war machine" like this one for getting pipes onto the roof if you don't want to end up in a loopy tangled mess!
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2013
     
    I just love your medieval machine, thanks for the advise and looking forward to the data. John
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2013
     
    Was it made by FIAT :bigsmile:
  26.  
    Posted By: SteamyTeaWas it made by FIAT:bigsmile:" alt=":bigsmile:" src="https:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" >

    No but I reckon the Romans would have appreciated it:wink:
    • CommentAuthorSwarm
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2013
     
    I find your roof very inspiring Mike and wondered if it is commissioned yet?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2013 edited
     
    Only just spotted this thread- thanks for 'bumping' it Swarm. Mike, your installation is astonishing - well done.

    As far as the underground part, this thread http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11107&page=1#Item_17 has gone a bit off-topic, opening up new affordable (free!) possibilites of thermal modelling what you've built, over the 6 months.

    When I was thinking of collecting easy abundant summer heat from tile batten-space, for inter-seasonal storage, I was thinking of lots of airflow as the thermofluid, which would be (big fat) ducted down to a grid of (smaller - like 110mm) pipes buried deep. Unfortunately it would need a fan, but PV powered, only being reqd while the sun shone. A big limitation is the considerable thermal resistance of the plastic pipe wall - in your case twice, under the tiles and where buried underground. My way, it's only once - underground - and it could conceivably be more conductive metal, or clay drain pipe there.
    • CommentAuthorMikeRumney
    • CommentTimeSep 6th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomOnly just spotted this thread- thanks for 'bumping' it Swarm. Mike, your installation is astonishing - well done.


    New wider doors now required for passage of builder's head!

    Posted By: fostertomAs far as the underground part, this threadhttp://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11107&page=1#Item_17" rel="nofollow" >http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11107&page=1#Item_17has gone a bit off-topic, opening up new affordable (free!) possibilites of thermal modelling what you've built, over the 6 months.


    Haven't squinted at this for long enough to get it yet, but will persevere!

    Posted By: fostertomWhen I was thinking of collecting easy abundant summer heat from tile batten-space, for inter-seasonal storage, I was thinking of lots of airflow as the thermofluid, which would be (big fat) ducted down to a grid of (smaller - like 110mm) pipes buried deep. Unfortunately it would need a fan, but PV powered, only being reqd while the sun shone. A big limitation is the considerable thermal resistance of the plastic pipe wall - in your case twice, under the tiles and where buried underground. My way, it's only once - underground - and it could conceivably be more conductive metal, or clay drain pipe there.


    Yup I realise there are several ways to make our set-up more efficient but I "designed" it with low cost and low tech as priorities, led partly by what materials were already to hand.
    My build's "green" credentials are mainly, ahem, built, on recycling and low "cradle to grave" "embodied energy".
    I'm treating the heatstore as a bonus of as yet unknown proportion!
    Re the 110 pipes etc ... I'm not sure, but I think smaller bore pipes are preferable as far as the plastic thermal resistance goes?
    (volume to surface area etc etc)
    Also the plastic in the Alupex pipe is "proper thin", with metal sandwiched in there as well ... I guess I thought if it's good enough for underfloor heating systems it's good enough for this (?)
    • CommentAuthormike7
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: TriassicWe're planning our next self build and the chief designer (wife) hates retrofit solar PV panels ("they look like they have been plonked on the roof without any thought about the asthetics")


    One of the reasons PV on the roof often looks so bad is the restricted choice of panel size and shape results in a very clunky layout. Just thought that while the choice of actual panel sizes is not going to change much, it's possible that matching dummy panels of any suitable shape could be made up relatively cheaply to give a greatly improved aesthetic.

    Posted By: MikeRumney
    A further coil 2m below the slab is supposed to deliver ground heat 6 months after collection by virtue of being forced to take a long path up through alternating laminations of reclaimed bricks and insulation ...
    ("AGS")
    Digging 6m down was off-budget.


    Bit late in the day now perhaps, but to the best of my knowledge, the seasonal heat from a store 6m away will show a peak arriving at the proper time, but will suffer an decrement in the region of 20:1 (Edit Not less than this - likely to be a good deal worse). Better probably to actively recover the heat via the pipes that delivered it?

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