Green Building Forum - Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees Mon, 18 May 2026 04:38:59 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182796#Comment_182796 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182796#Comment_182796 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 15:52:41 +0100 Ed Davies
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/spain-energy-idUSL6N0GE1WR20130814

I really really hope that a) this report is wrong and b) no government ever tries anything so mindbogglingly stupid in a proper country.

H/t the other place: http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20781.msg239750;topicseen#msg239750]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182797#Comment_182797 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182797#Comment_182797 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 15:55:07 +0100 SteamyTea So really just a paperwork 'transparency' issue.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182802#Comment_182802 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182802#Comment_182802 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 16:37:12 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: SteamyTeaDo they then pay you as well.I don't think so. My recollection was that the FIT scheme was stopped about a year ago but I might be wrong.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182806#Comment_182806 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182806#Comment_182806 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 17:29:48 +0100 skyewright Posted By: SteamyTeaDo they then pay you as well.
So really just a paperwork 'transparency' issue.
No. The plan is apparently to charge for generation and pay nothing for energy that is exported to the grid...
Here's another relevant link to "the other place". The OP is in Spain.
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20547.0.html]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182809#Comment_182809 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182809#Comment_182809 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 17:45:00 +0100 Ed Davies
What's worse, is that some people have been installing semi-off-grid systems where it's essentially an off-grid battery based system but with a backup connection to the grid instead of a generator. It appears that these types of installs also fall under the same mandate, so they will have to install a consumption meter and pay the energy mafia for what they use in their own semi-off-grid setups.
While this is indeed daft it seems to me that it would not be unreasonable to insist that people with their own generation but who use some grid supply be on a tariff with a higher standing charge to cover the cost of the connection and the more-peaky usage.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182810#Comment_182810 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182810#Comment_182810 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 17:46:32 +0100 marktime
Back in the old days, when FITS were introduced, many small agricultural groups formed co-ops, inviting parents, family etc, to purchase a small parcel of land, a couple of hectares or so, to erect 50 kW systems.

Banks offered generous loan based on a business plan to pay of the debt within the first twelve years and reap an income/pension support for the nominal remainder of 12 or 13 years before anticipated lifetime failure of the panels. Of course, everyone hoped that they would continue to generate beyond that but that was the business case, and a sound one at that.......before the government reneged on the deal.

Now the co-ops, and they are dozens of them in Andalusia alone, have little or no income in addition to having to pay the 7% levy on their generated product. Who said the sun was free? The result, where co-ops can't make the payment, is foreclosure, the banks then auction out the panels to any bidder and of course, the only people with any interest are the utilities. The infrastructure is in place and they can flog the juice at their wholesale rate.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182816#Comment_182816 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182816#Comment_182816 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:38:23 +0100 Gotanewlife
Fingers crossed! but also we took this on knowing there was a worst case outcome and we can hack it if it comes to it - you have do really consider all the risks on this sort of thing.

BTW I think our panels had guaranteed 80% output after 25 years or something like that. Do we have any reliable info on panel longevity? And on Inverter longevity? Should I be saving a little every month to pay for these capital items when they die?]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182820#Comment_182820 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182820#Comment_182820 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 21:56:02 +0100 skyewright Posted By: Ed DaviesWhile this is indeed daft it seems to me that it would not be unreasonable to insist that people with their own generation but who use some grid supply be on a tariff with a higher standing charge to cover the cost of the connection and the more-peaky usage.
Interesting idea.
I didn't think the cyclists/petrol station analogy in the reuters article worked very well. An analogy of charging cyclists a (punitive) Road Tax might have worked better? Still not a perfect analogy (few are), but a bit closer?]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182826#Comment_182826 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182826#Comment_182826 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 22:46:17 +0100 Ed Davies 17 cents/kWper kWh.

Posted By: GotanewlifeFingers crossed! but also we took this on knowing there was a worst case outcome…
This is beyond the worst case I would previously have been able to think of (which would have been ending the FIT scheme and, just conceivably, banning export or even insisting on disconnection.) Despite the previous American insistence that you don't own the rain that lands on your own roof (now gone) I'd have never have thought of charging people for using their own equipment to make use of the sunlight falling on it.

(P.S., perhaps next year they'll be charging people for sunlight coming in through their windows.)]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182827#Comment_182827 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182827#Comment_182827 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 22:58:05 +0100 SteamyTea Mind we get highly taxed on products that can kill us :confused:]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182830#Comment_182830 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182830#Comment_182830 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 23:44:18 +0100 WillInAberdeen Lets lay off the stereotypes eh.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182838#Comment_182838 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182838#Comment_182838 Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:32:36 +0100 Ed Davies Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182843#Comment_182843 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182843#Comment_182843 Sat, 24 Aug 2013 18:00:57 +0100 Gotanewlife Yes charging for the PV generated is worse than worse case.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182867#Comment_182867 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182867#Comment_182867 Sat, 24 Aug 2013 22:56:57 +0100 SteamyTea Say we started charging 10p/kWh for home generated and we buy it in at 16p/kWh, we are still better off (if you disregard the capital costs).
Different if we charged 20p/kWh when grid was 16p/kWh.

The PV industry has always banged on about price parity with the grid, what they wanted before the FITs was introduced, but if you think about it, grid electricity is sold to consumers at retail price, parity would have to be at wholesale price to make it worth while for the big power companies to buy it.
Where subsidies/grants/incentives/obligations cause problems.
Just tax the polluters at source, even at 100% of wholesale price it would only make less than 30% difference on the retail price.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182902#Comment_182902 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182902#Comment_182902 Sun, 25 Aug 2013 21:36:03 +0100 jms452
'You have fitted insulation to your house so you need to pay a higher standing charge to partially make up for the cash the utilities are loosing as a result'

shortly followed by

'Your frugal ways are unfair on the rest of the consumers who buy sensible amounts of electricity & gas']]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182904#Comment_182904 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182904#Comment_182904 Sun, 25 Aug 2013 21:42:30 +0100 jms452
It sounds more communist revolution than 'right wing'.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182905#Comment_182905 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182905#Comment_182905 Sun, 25 Aug 2013 21:47:39 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: jms452shortly followed byBasically yes, the market will charge what the consumer can pay. This puts upper and lower limits on what can be charged (it can be dressed up anyway you like).
I think I read that the average domestic energy spend was about 8% of the average household wage.
This could go up to possibly 12% (would not particular affect the top 50% of earners but would hurt the bottom 20%) for the same amount of energy used.
But if this decreased overall usage by say 15%, the wholesale price would probably drop (this assumes that the European market does the same).

It is really just supply and demand with volume and wholesale price on one side and percentage of household spend on the other.
If this made larger 'profits' for the energy companies they would be forced to bail out the hardest hit (as they are now but few claim it).]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182930#Comment_182930 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182930#Comment_182930 Mon, 26 Aug 2013 11:28:50 +0100 rhamdu ]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182931#Comment_182931 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182931#Comment_182931 Mon, 26 Aug 2013 12:08:59 +0100 Graeme Berry Posted By: jms452s
'You have fitted insulation to your house so you need to pay a higher standing charge to partially make up for the cash the utilities are loosing as a result'


is that not more or less what the governments considering doing with VED for low and zero emission vehicles?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/9301269/Drivers-punished-for-going-green.html

how's this for an "analogy" i once had an orange mobile phone that used your wifi to boost signal, BUT also took any resultant downloads (over wifi) out of you data allowance, so effectively charging you for using your own wifi. i think it was called "orange unique". needless to say that phone got rooted+flashed double quick!]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182938#Comment_182938 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182938#Comment_182938 Mon, 26 Aug 2013 13:42:26 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: rhamduWhat a brilliant idea!I like that one too, shall we start a campaign against allotment owners, green fingered neighbours and cyclists that free wheel down hill.
Has any ever seen Pascali's Island
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095827/]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182939#Comment_182939 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182939#Comment_182939 Mon, 26 Aug 2013 13:45:49 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: jms452so what's next?

'You have fitted insulation to your house so you need to pay a higher standing charge to partially make up for the cash the utilities are loosing as a result'That would, indeed, be ridiculous and unfair (which doesn't mean it couldn't happen, of course).

However, “you have fitted insulation, PV and electric heating to your house resulting in your consumption from the grid being much more variable than most so you need to pay a higher standing charge to cover the cost of providing it” would be disappointing but not so ridiculous and unfair.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182940#Comment_182940 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182940#Comment_182940 Mon, 26 Aug 2013 13:46:03 +0100 SteamyTea Going to be interesting to see what fiddles happen with the RHI and any metering.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182962#Comment_182962 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182962#Comment_182962 Mon, 26 Aug 2013 21:52:40 +0100 rhamdu Posted By: SteamyTeaGoing to be interesting to see what fiddles happen with the RHI and any metering.

Anyone on top FIT rate could probably make money by floodlighting their solar panels at night.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182974#Comment_182974 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182974#Comment_182974 Tue, 27 Aug 2013 07:14:32 +0100 SteamyTea On a 4 kWp system you could swap panels for about £9000 of batteries, or about 50 kWh of round trip storage.
Cost £2.5 to charge up but get back £22 via the FITs. That would be grossing £7000/year.

There is a more serious point to this and that is what would energy storage actually be worth.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182988#Comment_182988 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182988#Comment_182988 Tue, 27 Aug 2013 10:38:58 +0100 rhamdu Posted By: SteamyTea
There is a more serious point to this and that is what would energy storage actually be worth.
Absolutely. You'd be providing a real service. In contrast to my scheme which is desperately inefficient and entirely satirical.]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182990#Comment_182990 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=182990#Comment_182990 Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:01:07 +0100 skyewright Posted By: SteamyTeaThere is a more serious point to this and that is what would energy storage actually be worth.
Wear & tear on the battery bank (Depth of Discharge, cycles, etc.,) would likely be significant considerations.

You might find this recent Navitron topic "why not PV as a 24 hour base supply ?" in which someone proposes the idea of large(ish) PV installs using battery storage to even out their input into the grid interesting? Battery costs & the matter of "cycles"/battery life are mentioned.
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20786.0.html]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=183001#Comment_183001 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=183001#Comment_183001 Tue, 27 Aug 2013 13:08:37 +0100 djh Posted By: Ed Davies(P.S., perhaps next year they'll be charging people for sunlight coming in through their windows.)
That's what us Brits did a while ago. Remember the window tax?]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=183012#Comment_183012 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=183012#Comment_183012 Tue, 27 Aug 2013 15:17:03 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: skyewrightWear & tear on the battery bank (Depth of Discharge, cycles, etc.,) would likely be significant considerations.Have I mentioned my views on chemical storage, hence
Posted By: SteamyTeaenergy storage
:wink:

Posted By: djhRemember the window tax?
Could tax some people sunbathing on public beaches, maybe a free allowance based on BMI, say anything below 20 is free, then 21 to 25 at 10p/hour, 26 to 30, 50p/hour anything over that £1/hour. Or should it be more expensive than a sunbed at about £20/hour :cool:]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=183020#Comment_183020 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=183020#Comment_183020 Tue, 27 Aug 2013 18:07:08 +0100 jamesingram

Isn't this Espana situation some what hypothetical . There's been a smoking ban ( in bars etc) in Spain for longer than the UK. You wouldn't know it to go there :)]]> Africa indeed begins at the Pyrenees https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=183021#Comment_183021 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11066&Focus=183021#Comment_183021 Tue, 27 Aug 2013 18:17:12 +0100 skyewright Posted By: jamesingramIsn't this Espana situation some what hypothetical . There's been a smoking ban ( in bars etc) in Spain for longer than the UK. You wouldn't know it to go there :)
The new Spanish legislation could be a nice little earner for the suppliers[Edit: i.e. the grid operators]? Maybe that will be relevant to the level of enforcement/compliance?]]>