Renewable Energy: When the lights go out

61 to 90 of 113

- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013
Posted By: JontiYou really should do the posters here the courtesy of making your connections with the energy companies clear.
Could you point to some reason to think ST has any connections with energy companies? My impression from conversations here over a number of years and some separate brief email conversations with him is that, if he does, they're very minor and incidental.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013
Ed,

I do not want to start an argument between myself and ST which is why I will refrain from replying to his comments on this particular topic. I find ST's contribution, well balanced and insight to the sight to be very positive with this one exception. I too have never had the impression of any sort of connection in any thread except when it comes to this particular topic. It will not lessen my regard of him one way or the other.

To answer your question it has to do with firstly his constant support for the energy companies to do what ever they wish and finding not a single negative point which is hard to believe. His one sided defence of them just does not sit with his posts on other topics as does his ignoring/ refusing to address most of the negative points raised by myself and others.

The second reason I will keep to myself until after ST's response.

Jonti
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013 edited
I have no connection to any energy company, except as a bill payer.
I also don't believe in conspiracies, there is enough stupidity in government and industry without any need for a 'grand plan' to keep the poor, poor.
I do believe in a couple of economic theories that hold true, as well as the ease of using cheap fossil fuel as opposed to expensive renewables and nuclear. And my science degree is in renewable energy and environmental science, that is why I know about the limitations of renewables. Do I want anyone to pay high prices, no I don't, but we have a looming energy gap that is not going to be filled with RE, we have pollution problems that are not going to be solved with burning trees in large coal fired plants. So what can we do about, put the unit price up to discourage usage. Most people could use a third less electricity without it hurting, so a 20% rise in unit price does not need to hurt. That is just sensible to me, no need to work for an energy company to state that.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013 edited
ST,

thanks for the frank and open post. It will help me post with a clearer perspective in future on this subject and your posts.

Though I agree with much of what you say it still ignores the fact that there quite a lot of people out there who are really struggling to pay their current bills and who are doing nothing else other than light and heat. They can not reduce their usage unless they sit in the dark wrapped in blankets. All your increasing the price will do is make it impossible for them to pay the bills. This is always the basis of my position when posting.

In the past I have suggested that a minimum amount of energy should be available to all at a low price the after that what ever price the market will carry. You have also given such a partial okay in other threads. Then you come along with just put up the price and damn them. 20% in the price will hurt a lot of people.

Jonti

Ed, my second reason was that ST ignored previous requests to clear up his association with said industry and the fact no name etc. on the profile all suggest something to hide. I am happy he has finally come up with answers.

Jonti
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013
Second point first. We had a thread about online anonymity several years back, as I was lecturing at the time thought it best not to give too much detail about myself. This was also the advice from the teaching union. It is especially relevant when expressing a personal view that may be at odds from a view that is taught (i was contacted by 2 of my students about my views about just reducing usage rather that spending lots on RE).

The whole point about pushing the price of a unit up is to discourage waste. If you give a certain amount away for free (or at very low cost), then you just create a new starting point, same as my rational for not building smaller homes. You will just get a smaller house for the same price as what used to be a small house.
if I take my energy costs as an example, the unit cost has gone up about 12 to 15% in the last 8 years, but I pay out less cash, that is because I have halved my energy use. I have also done this at little cost. I see no reason why others cannot do this (if someone uses so little energy, say 300 quid a year they cannot be in fuel poverty as even the dole pays enough to cover that).
as I mentioned elsewhere, the UK has bigger financial problems than the cost of domestic energy. We would be better of tackling wealth and income inequity before we harangue the energy companies who take less than 5% of household income.
- CommentAuthorbot de paille
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013
Its amazing that just because someone holds an opinion that they must be in connection or getting money out of it....
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013
ST,

you are assuming that people can afford to reduce their usage. Did your reduction come just because you stopped using as much energy or did you improve your insulation and draught proofing?

hypothetically, what could your lodger do if required to cut electrical consumption by a third but not be allowed to alter the building substance in any way?

I understand the point about why you might want to be anonymous but it is a sad world when there is no room for free thinking and standing by it. It should be possible for people to be members of political parties, etc. yet still teach concepts that do not agree with that affiliation.

bdp, As far as I can recall I never said ST MUST be connected to the energy providers I only asked what his relationship was. I do not find anything wrong in that, do you?

Jonti
- CommentAuthorbxman
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013 edited
ST you say your unit cost has gone up 12 to 15 % in the last 8 years .

I think you must be very lucky how did you manage it ?

http://utilitrackecr.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Utilitrackecr-Historical-energy-prices-rises.pdf

unfortunately only goes to 2012 .

There should be a major price hike for those that are excessive users on the domestic side .
May be the reduced 5% vat rate should only apply to the Â£500 of energy used by a household with say a Â£100 being added every additional resident in the house .

Nothing is 100% fair I know but some incentive must be created to reduce consumption .

The other major problem is the creation of effective short term energy storage the whole success of Renewable Energy is dependent on it.
It is not going to be a profitable exercise in it's own right and to my mind should be financed by the community / Government .
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013 edited
Posted By: JontiDid your reduction come just because you stopped using as much energy
25 to 30% was just better management, the rest has been draught excluding, about Â£50, new glazing, about Â£200 (but changed when I painted and straightened the frames, Estate Agent said I would need new plastic windows as the current ones were "rotten", the frames where fine) and about Â£100 on some more loft insulation. I suspect the biggest difference was using a washing line, Â£2, though I have bought at least Â£4 of extra pegs since (remember I am in the wettest county in the England).
I also fitted a pumped shower (Â£200) that reduces DHW usage if used sensibly.

Posted By: Jontihypothetically, what could your lodger do if required to cut electrical consumption by a third but not be allowed to alter the building substance in any way?
That one is simple to answer, and also saved me Â£1500 on water. She now takes shorter showers rather than stand there until the water runs cold. Took a bit of doing (an OU course in Science and Mathematics brought it home to her). She does not fill the kettle to the brim any more (makes her life easier as she only has one functioning arm). She also does not sit next to an open window when the air gets cold (her rooms gets the morning sun). She has also learnt not to leave the bathroom light on, which works the extractor and sucks the warm air out the house, she only puts a full load of washing in (and runs it at night) rather than puts a days worth of clothes in at a time.
Cooking, which is a bit of a challenge for her (only having one properly working arm and a third of her brain damaged, with another third having problems and the remaining third the female part ), has been modified with simpler recipes that only take a pan or two, or the oven, rather than every ring, both ovens, the kettle, all the utensils, every bit of cutlery, all 5 sharp knives and the teaspoons she has not thrown away with the yoghurt pot, though not sure why she tries to eat yoghurt I don't know, as most of it ends up on the wall when she pulls the foil top off!

But not only have I reduced my usage from 11MWh/year (the first year I was in my house on my own) but I have also doubled occupancy, and taken on a lodger that had no concept of a utility bill, I think that may be where the term 'electricity comes from Unicorn Farts' originated from, though I think Damon said it first, be he thought I did.

The main way to save costs very little with an easy 20 to 30% just on sensible usage (like not having a PC using 2.5 kWh logging energy usage). Sensible and appropriate clothing, moving about for a few minutes when feeling chilled, trusting the weather forecast, lots of things can make a difference.

Posted By: Jontiit is a sad world when there is no room for free thinking and standing by it
Yes it is, but look what happened to Mary Beard
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013
ST,

you could also say all you have done is improve on your households wasteful lifestyle you were leading

But what if they are already so efficient there is no slack?

and 25%-30% came about because you could alter the building which many landlords won't allow.

You are also correct about Mary Beard but then you will find most Americans are also shocked by the narrow mindedness of some people.

You say unit price but what about total bill. Is your bill only 15% higher than the lowest possible bill 8 years ago. I could quite easily claim that my bill has increased by over 20,000% in the last three years at my current property which although entirely true is not wholly honest as three years ago the property was in my name but empty on a non standing charge tariff. Cherry picking of facts always lessens the stand point not strengthen.

Jonti
- CommentAuthormarkocosic
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013
Absurdly high residential energy use comes down to three things:

1) Stupidity. This self-inflicted condition affects great swathes of the country but deserves no sympathy - it isn't for a lack of opportunity, and yes that includes the opportunity for parents to abort unwanted children or those with obvious genetic defects condemning them to a life of stupid.

2) Selfishness. Two can live for the price of one. Four can live for not much more. Again this deserves no sympathy even when it's a widower who refuses an apartment/sheltered accommodation.

3) Choice. You aren't forced to rent a rubbish room, live in an inappropriately sized home beyond your means, or even sit on your backside all day in front of the TV. You can downsize, upgrade, and get a life/job that amounts to using somebody else's heat for much of the day.

Eliminate those three and you're at 2000kWh/yr/adult in electricity and 5,000kWh/yr in space heating before you even try. 1500/4000 is easy. 1200/3500 requires care or technical upgrades. The cost of that energy is inconsequential for everybody in this country thanks to the welfare system.

I also have three lodgers at any one time, rotated through on 2-6 months rentals, and whilst by definition (2) doesn't apply the degree to which (1) and (3) influence household energy use is staggering but not worth addressing given that combined council tax/internet/water/elec/gas (in that order) amount to Â£75/mo each but rent is Â£400/mo each - a 100% rise in the price of "effectively free" is effectively nothing. ;-)
- CommentAuthormarkocosic
- CommentTimeDec 15th 2013
"But what if they are already so efficient there is no slack?"

Then their bills are inconsequential already. Or they're complaining that they can't afford their lifestyle, not that the bills for their lifestyle are outrageous.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
Posted By: Jontiyou could also say all you have done is improve on your households wasteful lifestyle you were leading
That is right, I was wasteful, but not so wasteful that my house was out of the range of normality.

Posted By: JontiBut what if they are already so efficient there is no slack?
I covered that with
Posted By: SteamyTea(if someone uses so little energy, say 300 quid a year they cannot be in fuel poverty as even the dole pays enough to cover that)
Marko covered it a bit stronger too

Posted By: markocosicThen their bills are inconsequential already. Or they're complaining that they can't afford their lifestyle, not that the bills for their lifestyle are outrageous.

Posted By: Jontiand 25%-30% came about because you could alter the building which many landlords won't allow.
No, that can be brought about with better management, I cannot make that saving again though management. Covered it in my reply about my lodger
Posted By: SteamyTeaThat one is simple to answer, and also saved me Â£1500 on water.
and so forth. That is what management does.

Posted By: bxmanI think you must be very lucky how did you manage it ?
By not locking myself into any 'deal'. Over the years I have had the standard tariff except when I first moved in and I was on a 'green tariff' though SWEB. EDF took over SWEB and that deal was automatically dropped and a strange multi tiered tariff for E7 users was introduced (it was this that made me look closely at my usage and the times that the E7 kicked in). There was then a period of energy prices and billing going a bit haywire (about 2008/9/10) until EDF did what all energy companies are now doing and have a simplified billing system of a standing charge and in the case of E7, just two rates, Day and Night.
To a certain extent I have been 'lucky' as I started by paying over the odds, but am currently on about the cheapest tariff (was only beaten by the EDF 'Blue' last time I checked, but further checking and 'Blue' is the same deal as the 'Standard', so probably a rounding error). I also get a discount for not having gas, and I could also get a further discount if I went to Direct Debit, but I like the flexibility of quarterly billing.
I have not taken into account the latest round of price rises as they have not affected me yet (think EDF is planning a 3.9% rise in January).
Thinking back I seem to remember being 'courted' on my doorstep by British Gas and EON as I was 'a higher than average user' and they offered me a locked in deal that had unit prices higher than I was paying. I got my latest bill out, showed them that I was a lower than average user and my current bill was lower than they were offering, then explained my background and showed them my monitoring equipment, I then suggested that they get a real job (one of them was part of a crew from London) and stop trying to rip people off with long term deals with exit penalties (I don't support everything that the energy companies have done and the regulator fined them for this).
One thing that does intrigue me about about the competition from the smaller energy companies is that they are not offering very large discounts when compared to the large companies. You could save maybe 10% on the average bill, possibly 20% if you compared the the most expensive with the cheapest, but when I look at what I want (quarterly billing, electricity only, E7) I can't find those huge discounts.
I think the main problem is that most consumers do not actually know how much they are using (they may know how much they pay, but that is not the same), they do not know when they are using it (I use the cheaper Night rate mercilessly, it accounts for about 70 to 80% of my usage) and I try to minimise what I use (I get quite narked when I have to use the condensing tumble dryer which costs less than 20p an hour).

Posted By: bxmanThe other major problem is the creation of effective short term energy storage the whole success of Renewable Energy is dependent on it.
Yes, this is a problem and a costly one in both efficiency and cash terms.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2013 edited
Went to the EU stats site to get some data about prices, quite interesting that low user price have not risen as fast as high user prices in the UK.
Not all the years are available, but I can only work with what is there.
This seems to be similar to what I have experienced, though may not be true for every user of electricity (thought I would put that in before the accusation of cherry picking starts).
- Low User Prices.jpg
- High User Prices.jpg
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
ST,

Posted By: JontiST,

You say unit price but what about total bill. Is your bill only 15% higher than the lowest possible bill 8 years ago. I could quite easily claim that my bill has increased by over 20,000% in the last three years at my current property which although entirely true is not wholly honest as three years ago the property was in my name but empty on a non standing charge tariff. Cherry picking of facts always lessens the stand point not strengthen.

Jonti

If you don't want to be accused of it then maybe you can answer the questions that don't back up your theory such as the one above.

Jonti
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
My total bill is almost half what it used to be, 7 years ago (only been in the place 8 years so it has to be 7 years).
But I can't see what your trying to establish here. Do you want unit prices and total bills lower than today (or some arbitrary point in time) regardless of usage for anyone deemed 'poor'.
I try very hard not to cherry pick, I also try to back up statements with references, the EU stats site supports my experience, or more to the point, my experience in energy prices is supported by the data collected by the EU.

So in my instance, the total bill is less and the unit price has gone up by about 11% over an 8 year period. I am not claiming anymore or any less than that.
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
Posted By: SteamyTeaWent to the EU stats site to get some data about prices, quite interesting that low user price have not risen as fast as high user prices in the UK.
Not as fast but still far higher (if I read the graphs right).
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
Check the x axis, the second chart covers a shorter time period, not a great deal in it. But I think with getting rid of tiered tariffs and a standing charge becoming universal that they are now almost the same.
Just a shame that the website does not give access to the raw data.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
ST,

what I am asking is very simple. What is the difference in price % between what you pay now and the cheapest tariff available 8 years ago.

Are you really claiming that light for like tariffs have only gone up 11% in 8 years?

Jonti
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013 edited
Posted By: JontiWhat is the difference in price % between what you pay now and the cheapest tariff available 8 years ago.
I have no ideas what the cheapest tariff was 8 years ago, so I cannot comment on that.

Posted By: JontiAre you really claiming that light for like tariffs have only gone up 11% in 8 years?
No I am not claim that all tariffs have only gone up 11% in the last 8 years. What I am claiming is that my unit price has changed by that amount (actually claimed 12 to 15%) for all the reasons I stated earlier, mainly that I was paying higher than average at the start, the unit price was tiered which I did not take much advantage of and there was no standing charge at that time making the apparent unit price higher.
But it must be remembered that there was no special rate for me (not as if I get a staff discount), there will have been thousands of people on my tariffs over that same time period all who will have benefited.
The EU Statistical data seems to support my experience, though I cannot and have not claimed that is true for all users.
Is that clear?
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
ST,

so you compare a high end tariff from 8 years with a super low tariff of today and saying my electricity has not gone up so much. If I recall correctly you are on E7 so have you compared the night tariff, the mean tariff or price of your average unit?

I could claim that 8 years ago my electricity was 50% less than what I am paying today (even less than E7 night tariff), that it was a standard tariff and that it was 100% renewable energy. But as with your comparison it is meaningless as it is very specific to one case which the majority could not follow.

Jonti
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013 edited
I am comparing my bills (in this instance) and then comparing that against the EU stats data, which shows a similar pattern. I am comparing the mean price, though I could with a bit of time compare each individual element (might be a job for Christmas Day).
You can say that my bills are meaningless, but I am not the only one on them (all SWEB to EDF standard tariff customers would have got the same deal), but are you also claiming that the EU Statistics data is meaningless as well?
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
Posted By: SteamyTeaI am comparing my bills (in this instance) and then comparing that against the EU stats data, which shows a similar pattern.

Maybe meaningless is a bit harsh certainly they are not typical. So as your bills have gone up by just 11% in the last 8 years and you claim EU stats show a similar pattern then you saying that EU stats are showing that the average price in electricity in the UK has gone by just 11% in the last 8 years (or there abouts).

Not everybody has a meter that allows for E&, E10 etc. Many landlords stipulate who the energy provider is to be and there are even some people forced to use 'pay as you go' systems all of which make it difficult to reduce the costs. Many people have landlords who do not care about improvements to the housing they rent out and do not allow any alterations even of the tenant can afford it. There are many people who are living on the edge financially and really struggle to make ends meet. My heart goes out to such folk in genuine difficulties and it narks me when some people just brush off their situation as self inflicted when very often it is not.

Jonti
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013 edited
Landlords cannot stipulate who the energy provider is and cannot insist that a prepaid meter is used. The prepaid meter can be stipulated by an energy company though (for bad debtors). As far as I know any domestic dwelling can have an E7 meter fitted.
I monitored the energy usage of someone who claimed that her council house was costing a fortune to run, when I checked it was actually cheaper to run than mine (there was her and 3 kids, all girls and two were teenagers). What was actually happening is that she remembered the amount she paid to recharge the key, but could not remember how often she recharged it. She was with EON at the time and the average unit price was within a fraction the same as mine. So hardly a rip off. Can't claim that is typical, but probably not unusual.
As for people living on the edge, would someone living on a student loan count? I lived on one for two years (before I got a lodger), and run a house, I think Â£4,500 a year (of borrowed money), without any other benefits except council tax exception, counts as a low income. So I think I am well qualified to comment. But there are things that can be done to reduce energy usage and therefore cost (have stated them above with respect to what I had to train my lodger to do).

What does anger my, and I come across it a lot when discussing domestic energy, is people rarely know how much they use, what they are actually paying and what the options are. All three are easily available information, not hidden from people. So why are they not making informed decisions on how they spend their money? Are they all lazy, stupid, uniformed, being ripped off, I don't think so, collectively the general public are quite wise. I suspect that most people have worked out that there is not enough difference between suppliers to bother (as stated earlier), and even if someone, who is already a low user (like myself) halved their bills, what difference would the extra Â£300 a year make? Not much.

But getting back to the original question about what is to be done, more investment in infrastructure and energy saving is needed. The best way to do this is either to convince people to take an interest though education or punish them through higher prices. The education route does not seemed to have worked, so what is left, higher prices. These can be direct though bills, indirect through taxation or reduced benefits. Tinkering with a few percent profit margin here and there is not going to get the suggested Â£110b investment into the National Grid and probably close to Â£90b in new generation. But a penny a unit might, and if people could just save 10% each year we do not have to expand the infrastructure, we would only have to replace some of it.
Trouble is that we all want out cake and to eat it. We want cheap energy, we want low carbon energy, we want to keep our country views, we want to keep energy security, we want too much for too little. The harsh reality is that we cannot have what we want. Getting the government of the day to bail out the system is only a short term measure, all three major parties have had a crack at it now and it is just not happening. So I suspect that managed power cuts will happen again and then prices will rise. I would rather have prices rise now and less chance of power cuts, but recent history is working against me. If we do go for managed power cuts it is not so bad, if we end up with unmanaged power cuts then I shall be getting a generator and a large crossover switch/relay. Cheap and effective.
- CommentAuthormarkocosic
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
We haven't tried education yet. We've tried peddling pure lies and unrealistic targets but nobody has tried being honest enough with the electorate for meaningful education to occur.

A clarifying note on what I wrote earlier:

"This self-inflicted condition affects great swathes of the country but deserves no sympathy "

For some (born with genetic defects courtesy of irresponsible parents or an unfortunate false negative test result; suffering from brain damage or degenerate neurological diseases; prevented from learning by irresponsible parents and a society that couldn't care less) the condition isn't self-inflicted and sympathy is deserved.

I can then respond to this:

"There are many people who are living on the edge financially and really struggle to make ends meet. My heart goes out to such folk in genuine difficulties and it narks me when some people just brush off their situation as self inflicted when very often it is not."

I'll stick my head up and nark you by suggesting that there are a vanishingly small number of people for whom the situation isn't self-inflicted. (a sudden physical or mental disability of their own or a dependent is about the only thing that'll do it)

Even then it narks me that they whinge about energy prices rather than rent, council tax, or food on the table. (all far more significant expenses and ones which you have more discretion over)

"Landlords cannot stipulate who the energy provider is and cannot insist that a prepaid meter is used."

Yes they can if they're the ones re-selling the energy. Most don't want to get involved with that though as you're not allowed to profit from it.
- CommentAuthorGarethC
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
Have you discussed rising block tariffs on this forum? i.e. 0% VAT (or even a subsidy!) on the first XkWh of a household's usage (the XkWh being an estimate of what people need to stay warm and cook food with if being sensible about usage and undertaking basic/cheap energy efficiency measures), then 20% VAT on the next YkWh of energy, then 50% VAT above a level that's deemed excessive for a single household.

Reduces energy costs for the hard up (so long as they take some action) and/or eco-aware, while giving everyone a decent incentive to reduce usage. Whole thing could be tax neutral if that mattered. Apologies if you've already covered this ground.
- CommentAuthorJonti
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
ST,

landlords can and do stipulate energy providers. Prepaid meters are fitted to some properties as standard. Yes, you can have an E7 meter fitted to any property but you have to get it fitted. The date for mine being fitted is middle of next year so until then I do not have the same options as you.

I accept that as you have a study showing one family showing that a person who complained about the expense of electricity were in fact being incredibly waste this is conclusive and irrefutable proof that all such people who complain about energy prices are also wasters.

As a home owner then you are either asset rich or have made the decision to buy a property which hardly show poverty. On top of this you have a lodger so extra income there too. I asked one question not answered but then didn't expect it to be

I do agree with your last two paragraphs though. Pretty much spot on.

GarethC,

yes, such ideas have been discussed and I for one believe it is the best way.

Jonti
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
Posted By: markocosicYes they can if they're the ones re-selling the energy
Pretty sure that the law was changed on this last year or the year before. Different for 'boarders', they come under a totally different set of rules now.

Posted By: GarethCHave you discussed rising block tariffs on this forum?
Yes, and TEQs, Cap and Trade and a few other mad cap schemes.
They all boil down to either denying people energy or charging them more, I prefer the latter. How the extra revenue is invested, and by whom, is really the nub of it though.
- CommentAuthorborpin
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
Posted By: SteamyTeaLandlords cannot stipulate who the energy provider is
They can make this a condition of the lease that the provider may not be changed. You can though select a tariff from that provider.
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2013 edited
Not what I was told, and there was a bit on the radio about it a few weeks back, the legal guy was adamant that tenants could change, you can also ask to have a service disconnected i.e. just have electric.
Though you will probably not have your lease renewed.
Would be good to know the definitive answer though.

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