Fri, 06 Mar 2026 21:52:40 +0000 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194095#Comment_194095 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194095#Comment_194095 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:06:33 +0000 tony
Want
1 Good design
2 Low maintainence
3 Low running costs
4
5
6
7
8
9
10

Dont Want
1 Flat roofs
2 Parapet Walls
3 Box gutters
4 Thermal bridges
5 Air Cooling
6
7
8
9
10]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194097#Comment_194097 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194097#Comment_194097 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:12:17 +0000 Jonti
all three wants are concept where as all five don't wants are precise. Better the other way round or at the least precise wants.

Jon]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194099#Comment_194099 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194099#Comment_194099 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:24:20 +0000 tony https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194100#Comment_194100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194100#Comment_194100 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:41:57 +0000 willie.macleod ]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194101#Comment_194101 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194101#Comment_194101 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:04:13 +0000 owlman https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194102#Comment_194102 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194102#Comment_194102 Tue, 21 Jan 2014 23:25:18 +0000 tony
All designed by architects. :(


I would like to produce a good design brief]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194108#Comment_194108 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194108#Comment_194108 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 07:37:04 +0000 DarylP
We have an 'architect - designed' school locally that is a joke....!

The biggest (obvious) issue is the planting of borders/shrubs adjacent to narrow walkways to/from & around the school. At morning and afternoon 'rush hour', prams plus parents in both directions crushed the greenstuff in less than one week, so the borders were then tarmacced over

Think about how people actually access the buildings, as well as how they use them?

Good luck]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194110#Comment_194110 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194110#Comment_194110 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:04:12 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: DarylPThink about how people actually access the buildings, as well as how they use them?So a drop off point that does not cause roads to be blocked.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194112#Comment_194112 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194112#Comment_194112 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 08:10:55 +0000 daserra https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194120#Comment_194120 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194120#Comment_194120 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:08:40 +0000 Jonti Posted By: daserraThere was a University campus in the US, I forget where, and they left it without paths during the first term and recorded where everyone walked over the grass, and then did the pathways after once the humans had marked them. Genius, yet so simple although anathema to our top down culture.

We did this once on a golf course construction between the greens and tees. As soon as we had put in the paths after the first season people changed their walking patterns Conclusion, as long as it is convenient people prefer walking on grass.

Tony,

I will have a think about it

Jonti]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194121#Comment_194121 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194121#Comment_194121 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:11:37 +0000 SteamyTea I think it was Central University in London that had miserable and not very social students, they made the very wide corridors narrower and found that students interacted with each other more and because more sociable.
Then there is the strange thing about funnelling around doorways. Put a restriction in the way and people become more ordered and you get a faster exit time.
Small spaces are also needed as not every student is gregarious, some like to hide away.
The main problem I have with schools is that many are like a fortress, one near me has double security fencing, the kids are locked in, just awful (and I hate kids and think they should be sent to an orphanage, then boarding school, then the forces, then university and eventually let out at 28). But locking them up during the day is not right.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194124#Comment_194124 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194124#Comment_194124 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:20:46 +0000 owlman
Where have you been all my life Steamy?

Remember; Insanity is hereditary, you can get it from your children.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194125#Comment_194125 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194125#Comment_194125 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:26:42 +0000 ferdinand2000
Oops. Missed "school". Back to the drawing board slightly.

Not sure about the duality - phrases can just be rewritten.

I think that ease of long term maintenance by on site staff is critical here.

Want

1 A complete absence of powered moving parts requiring any maintenance whatsoever.
2 Everything that we can see will need to be reached within the next 30 years to be reachable without roof ladders (see Kevin McCloud of Clan McCloud's plywood 'chimneys' at Swindon).
3 A conker tree onsite but outside the playground.
4 Electrical charging points for staff cars.
5 Several dozen built in bird boxes that are out of reach, including a sparrow colony, for swifts, and some aimed at more interesting species.

Ferdinand]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194137#Comment_194137 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194137#Comment_194137 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:14:56 +0000 bot de paille
DONT just ask the architect to produce something and then try to work it to what you would ideally like.

This way people are not wasting their time/money, getting frustrated with a client that starts out "do what you think is best" but then keeps coming back to revise the design multiple times and it becomes clear that they had a pretty good idea of what they wanted in the first place anyway!

In other words in my experience its always much better to spend a bit extra time getting the brief as close as possible to what you want and work from there.

The more the end design changes from the initial brief, the more likely the project is likely to run over estimated budget.

It also means that if you come with a very clear brief from the beginning it will soon become clear if its the right architect or not, by way of their reaction to the brief.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194138#Comment_194138 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194138#Comment_194138 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 11:22:54 +0000 atomicbisf
Ed]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194143#Comment_194143 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194143#Comment_194143 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:46:28 +0000 tony
parapet walls are thermal bridges, difficult to maintain, can leak, and are unnecessary especially on a new building]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194149#Comment_194149 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194149#Comment_194149 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:09:45 +0000 SteamyTea https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194151#Comment_194151 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194151#Comment_194151 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:14:01 +0000 djh
I believe it was Christopher Alexander who came up with the idea for the University of Oregon that first implemented it. It's been done elsewhere since. There are some online articles about the project, although not that particular aspect:

http://uplan.uoregon.edu/faq/FAQPatternLanquage.html
http://www.rainmagazine.com/archive/1991-1/the-oregon-experiment-revisited]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194152#Comment_194152 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194152#Comment_194152 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:19:21 +0000 Mackers
I think the design should rely on a very good precise brief but I also think that the architect should not take the lead on jobs (sorry to all you architects). I believe it should be a design team with the building services engineer taking the lead.

This will not work in all cases, but I am working for an M&E consultancy while finishing my masters in Energy & Building Services Engineering. This not only focusses on M&E but also on energy systems and the building fabric.

I have tried to give advice to architects on jobs about air tightness and more insulation but they just dont listen.
I find they get caught up in some detail and run away with it.

Dont get me wrong I love a good looking building but there has to be some sort of give and take there.

The bulk of our work at the minute is schools and I can safely say that I would not build one of them because the actual fabric of the buildings are a disgrace. In the recent one they have 50mm of Kingspan in a cavity wall!!]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194153#Comment_194153 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194153#Comment_194153 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:23:18 +0000 bot de paille
Want
1 Passivhaus

and go from there...


This document might be of help Tony, its in English: http://www.ond.vlaanderen.be/energie/pdf/AxelBretzke.pdf

Planning and building a PassiveHouse
(PH) primary school


contents:

0verview


History


Prozess of planing


What is, what does a passivehouse school need?


Why a school in passivehouse quality?


Basic data

Pictures

Other examples

Economy and ecology

Political effects

Details construction and technique


Winter heat protection


heating


Summer heat protection


Ventilation concept


Measurement and controlling


Water, hot and sewage


Electric installation


Scientific Measurement

Resumee]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194155#Comment_194155 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194155#Comment_194155 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:32:30 +0000 bot de paille
Valentin-Senger-Straße Passivhaus School Complex, Frankfurt
Posted on April 26, 2013
As part of the Sunday excursion at the 2013 International Passivhaus Conference my tour visited four projects including this very nice passivhaus school complex.

The school was designed by Baufrösche Architekten (Building Frogs Architects) and completed in 2010 at a cost of €17m. The total treated floor area (TFA) by Passivhaus methodology (useful internal area) is 5,540m2.

http://www.elementalsolutions.co.uk/valentin-senger-passivhaus-school-frankfurt/



Includes a sports pitch on the roof!

"Very simple solution to create thermal bridge free supports for the fencing round the sports pitch on the roof. Pre-cast mass concrete blocks avoid the need for penetrations through the waterproof membrane or insulation and double as seating."]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194158#Comment_194158 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194158#Comment_194158 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:38:01 +0000 bot de paille
Bushbury Hill Passivhaus schools

A certified Passivhaus primary school in Wolverhampton designed by Architype and built by Thomas Vale Contruction. Elemental Solutions provided full Passivhaus design advice, detailing and energy modeling working with Alan Clarke and E3 Consulting Engineers. Opened October 2011. Along with Oakmeadow this was one of the first 3 Passivhaus schools to be certified in the UK. Bushbury School has won a number of awards including a CIBSE Building Performance Award which you can read about in the May 2013 issue of the CIBSE Journal. Article available here.


http://www.elementalsolutions.co.uk/passivhaus-schools/



Designing Passivhaus schools video

Presentation at the UK Passivhaus Conference 2011 at the Barbican London with Jonathan Hines and Matt Wisdom. Here we outline the secret to delivering Passivhaus Schools at no extra cost, the innovative ventilation strategy, secrets of good airtightness and some differences compared to German schools.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MffKNX5qlLw]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194162#Comment_194162 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194162#Comment_194162 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:45:32 +0000 ferdinand2000
Do these leak?

F]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194168#Comment_194168 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194168#Comment_194168 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:18:18 +0000 Doubting_Thomas
Having worked on quite a few education projects previously, some of the most important early decisions are to do with what the industry calls 'programme'. There are various structures to teaching (yeargroup clusters, 'campus style faculties' etc.) and the operation of these will dictate (to some extent) how the building/s are arranged.

There will also be decisions to make on teaching methods (projector, whiteboard, laptops) and class size which could fundamentally affect heating loads, servicing provision etc.

Without delving too much into the form-follows-function argument, it's obvious you don't want to make the arrangement too specific, but I guarantee the head/principal/governors etc. will all have opinions on how this should work. A perfectly engineered passivhaus school that doesn't function operationally would be regarded as a poor successor to a leaky old one that let them teach how they want!

Whilst they could be a pain to most architects, the now defunct CABE produced some basic guidelines, most of which have been archived:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110118095356/http://www.cabe.org.uk/design-review/schools/criteria

On the more practical side, publications like Building Bulletin 98 (secondary) and 99 (primary) give spatial and area guidelines for how much space you need based on pupil numbers. NOTE: these are also now discontinued but the newer guidance tends to just refer back to these and then knock off some area for 'austerity'.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194208#Comment_194208 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194208#Comment_194208 Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:46:23 +0000 willie.macleod
This is why you need an architect who has designed schools before, knows the legislation and guidelines relating to them and the requirements for light/space/ventilation/toilets and the million and one other things. They have to piece it all together and come in with a design that fits the needs of everyone and the budget available. I would be amazed if they didn't automatically specify very high levels of insulation by default. Commercial users are far better at looking at the bigger picture than domestic users, they will want low running costs when they are talking tens of thousands in energy bills most likely per year if they are coming from an old school.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194390#Comment_194390 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194390#Comment_194390 Fri, 24 Jan 2014 18:49:37 +0000 borpin
Cheap simple square buildings and use that roof for lots of solar energy. It will be occupied when there is the most available so no reason why it cannot be self sufficient.

But... why do we keep reinventing the wheel and fueling architects nice holidays? We should build schools like MacDonalds build resurants. They are all the same modules put together as necessary. School needs change as demographics change so a large primary school is needed near a new development but later bigger secondary. Make the schools modular, refine the design as issues are found and in a few years we would have the ability to build cheap schools quickly and move them if necessary to where they are needed.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194392#Comment_194392 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194392#Comment_194392 Fri, 24 Jan 2014 19:11:58 +0000 squirrel
Wouldn't you first need to establish what kind of school is needed, how big, what ages, what facilities? Then maybe ask staff, kids and parents what extra features they want (conker trees in the yard, traffic-free drop-off point).

Then get a good architect/designer who can take all of that and turn it into some drawings.

Then find a way to build that design as a PH.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194394#Comment_194394 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194394#Comment_194394 Fri, 24 Jan 2014 21:02:13 +0000 Cerisy
Borpin - one big failing for all of us is to ignore history - when I was working for Notts County Council I had to sort out all the numerous problems with the CLASP system that was used for many schools, etc. In principle, brilliant - in reality, a minefield. We could replace the cheap flat roof covering with the latest materials that could give 25 / 30 year life, but the detailing around all the numerous roof lights was impossible to get watertight! Personally, the best school projects reflect the local environment - the new school at Newark was just brilliant due to an inspired head and an Architect that understood how to fit the building into a sensitive location.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194413#Comment_194413 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194413#Comment_194413 Sat, 25 Jan 2014 01:35:07 +0000 markocosic

I'll add a want: demand controlled ventilation


This approach doesn't work in practice as teachers make lousy autonomous control systems for mundane repetitive tasks. Assuming that they're even capable of understanding ventilation - not all are scientists.

"Applying the radically basic idea of using only windows to ventilate a room requires understanding from staff and some common sense. A simple user guide has been drafted..."

https://www.bsria.co.uk/news/article/classroom-ventilation-testing-of-alternatives/


And another: appropriate lighting

Both daylighting arranged such that you can read boards, screens, and at your desk, AND artificial lighting with a colour rendering index that means you can actually see shit in the classroom. Too many low CRI flourescent and LED fittings in modern buildings. "Lots" of light but you can't see jack shit. These on the other hand are great:

http://www.lamps2udirect.com/daylight-bulbs-and-tubes/70-watt-t8-full-spectrum-activa-cri-98-1a-daylight-tube/374


Nothing wrong with flat roofing on a commercial scale.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194420#Comment_194420 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11645&Focus=194420#Comment_194420 Sat, 25 Jan 2014 09:21:00 +0000 ferdinand2000 Assuming that they're even capable of understanding ventilation - not all are scientists.

I think you are perhaps a little optimistic about "scientists" .

How much control should teachers would be allowed over the learning environment in their classrooms?

I can recall being moved into a new office building, where we were suddenly presented with a "Comfort" conditioned building with no opening windows. I ended up with a forest of desk-plants just to make it liveable in my little bit.

Ferdinand]]>