Housing - Renovation: Fixings into EWI post-installation

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- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 13th 2014 edited
Posted By: Viking House
Posted By: Mike GeorgeViking, Yes I have lots of personal experience seeing rotten timbers which have been rendered over, both internally and externally. >
But no experience in putting timber into EWI as grounds? I have experience of putting pieces of marine plywood into EWI and plastering over it with the Acrylic type renders. I've done it over 100 times and there's no queue outside my door, so from my experience, I'd say the risk is minimal!
This thread is about EWI so there's no point putting up scary straw-man photos that have nothing to do with EWI and arguing about that!

You are a funny one Viking - hysterical in fact :) I see your new tactic is to accuse me of straw man tactics - I guess you are the expert so you should know :) Nevertheless, far from being a straw man my original comment was specific to the OP's grounds query - And the photo is very relevant to your subsequent question (which I notice you didn't answer with anything but your own straw man - which infers (wrongly) that my comments were in somewhat related to timber frame; which of course they were not. You then follow that with a bit of generic advertising.

My recent experience of EWI installations leads me to believe that there is a ticking time bomb of problems which will show themselves in the coming years.
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeDec 13th 2014
Mike, in the context of the OP's query your saying not to use timber is quite reasonable but you did say â€œEVER!â€ - upper case, exclamation mark - so it does seem, in turn, reasonable to point out that this advice is not completely general to all EWI. Let's not get too wound up about it all.
- CommentAuthorn2e4ewi
- CommentTimeDec 13th 2014
Hello, I myself have spent a few years within the EWI field watching the installing mainly my part was electrical and satellites, the use of wood on loaded items such as the above is an issue, I do see the comments on wood may last years but 25 years not sure. In the website I mentioned you will see photo and comments from many fields this post is not to promote my products but to highlight a better way forward, the mention of ply being used as layer is better than wood maybe, the risk comes from water ingress running along the thread of the fixing and swelling the wood, the mention of mastic reminds me of being 16 when the old boy who teached carpentry to dip screws in oil, back then we was spilling rotten wooden frames. Recently I spent a month or so with an enabling company to see how it's done, to be blunt very bad if your lucky treated wood will be used but as photos show I have also palette. Having worked with the support of the Bre and input from INCA, English heratage, system suppliers I maybe in a good position to comment, some on here already know me from Linkedin which has some useful comments take care Peter
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 13th 2014
Posted By: Ed DaviesMike, in the context of the OP's query your saying not to use timber is quite reasonable but you did say â€œEVER!â€ - upper case, exclamation mark - so it does seem, in turn, reasonable to point out that this advice is not completely general to all EWI. Let's not get too wound up about it all.

Yes, I did say that... and I meant what I said. Don't use timber within the insulation zone -EVER (Seems clear to me I was talking specifics as I did say WITHIN the insulation zone. And I'm not wound up at all :)
- CommentAuthorViking House
- CommentTimeDec 13th 2014 edited
Posted By: Mike GeorgeMy recent experience of EWI installations leads me to believe that there is a ticking time bomb of problems which will show themselves in the coming years.
So you stripped back the plaster and saw rotten-wood or is this just a hunch?
- CommentAuthorn2e4ewi
- CommentTimeDec 13th 2014
Dear Vicking House, Mike is spot on, I have seen holes in render and if you carefully look you will see rotten wood, I also have a photo of the wood before the render went on, this was reported and told it will be ok. So can say 110% this is an issue, the warrenty company without saying who the big names in the EWI cover are skirt round the issue its said if they come out and say it's wrong then open to claims, to be fair if they was more aware of the issue then not down to them, the bigger issue is the wrong type of wood makes the issue worse but no wood any any good, talk to TRADA wood governing body in the UK ask them about sealing wood behind render ?. When I work out how to add photos I shall, just please do not mention site or system if you know who or what it is, rather not name and shame.
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 13th 2014
Posted By: Viking House
Posted By: Mike GeorgeMy recent experience of EWI installations leads me to believe that there is a ticking time bomb of problems which will show themselves in the coming years.
So you stripped back the plaster and saw rotten-wood or is this just a hunch?

Viking, Is that a typo or do you really know so little about EWI that you think plaster is used ? :)

I've already given you a photo of what happens to wood which is rendered over. I have seen many many examples like this. And as I said previously the weather is the same and the material properties of renders are pretty much the same in terms of vapour and liquid transfer - which means it can and will happen in some circumstances. Obviously not all as exposure to weather is a factor.

Can I suggest you go to your local Library and borrow a good book on timber deterioration and its causes. Alternatively speak to English Heritage or BRE - the latter in particular published an excellent book called 'building defects' many years ago.

My comment about a ticking time bomb is about much more than timber in insulation zones - this is only a small part of what is going on. Mostly the problems will relate to poor practice or lack of knowledge regarding how to deal with old buildings in an appropriate way.

Not so long ago it was considered a fantastic idea to insulate every cavity you came across - many ofthe same properties are now having the insulation stripped back out because the penny has finally dropped that the cavity is there for a reason - Not a straw man argument either - just an example of past misunderstandings relating to the lemming approach to insulating everything unless it moves
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 13th 2014
Posted By: n2e4ewiDear Vicking House, Mike is spot on, I have seen holes in render and if you carefully look you will see rotten wood, I also have a photo of the wood before the render went on, this was reported and told it will be ok. So can say 110% this is an issue, the warrenty company without saying who the big names in the EWI cover are skirt round the issue its said if they come out and say it's wrong then open to claims, to be fair if they was more aware of the issue then not down to them, the bigger issue is the wrong type of wood makes the issue worse but no wood any any good, talk to TRADA wood governing body in the UK ask them about sealing wood behind render ?. When I work out how to add photos I shall, just please do not mention site or system if you know who or what it is, rather not name and shame.

Peter, If you email me a few pics I will size them for you and send them back so you can upload
- CommentAuthorRedDoor
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
I'm not an EWI convert in the case of solid-walled buildings however we'll press on with the experiment.

If the material used for creating grounds was say upvc would that perhaps create fewer problems? It's too late to get the wood out now but we don't have to use them if the Fischer FIDs turn out to work.

Other problems I can forsee include keeping EPS and electric cable insulation separate where the cables pass through, moisture ingress between the EWI and the wall, particularly, in our case, where a flat roof flashing meets the vertical edge and cold bands around all the window and door reveals where there's no EWI at all.
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
I have also been wondering about plastic grounds - Certainly won't rot. Upvc does expand and contract thermally a lot compared to render though this doesn't appear to be an issue as plastic beads used widely.

You've also highlighted some of the other problem areas I was hinting at. interfaces between roofs/gutters/flashings/verges/eaves all areas which need to be carefully considered for each property as there are many variations. What is critical to my mind is a pre-installation survey and specification by someone well experienced in EWI - I have a piece in the new GBM discussing this :)
- CommentAuthorn2e4ewi
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
RedDoor, if by EPS your talking about that white insulation yes it has a chemical reaction with PVC cable and of course raises the temp of it so lowering capacity to carry a load (ohms Law), the bigger issue and discussed with the NICIEC is the jointing of cables within blocks of wood within EWI, we have all seen lights with water in and this has been shown to travel down to the joint, putting aside the electrical safety issue and the regs, done in a poor way may allow water to enter the building fabric and the wood, if the wood does get wet at least it will not catch fire, the use of wooden boxes was stopped years ago, look at a website called n2e4ewi@gmail.com and download comments from NICEIC,
- CommentAuthorViking House
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014 edited
Hi RedDoor, you're taking too much heed of people here with absolutely no experience with External Insulation, they've never done it! They read a little bit about it and suddenly they're experts!
I've externally insulated 100's of houses since 1999, my teams were externally insulating houses for 10 years before they started with me. They always used marine ply grounds for light items like down-pipes etc and continued to do so while they worked with me, when they put a screw through the render they drilled a pilot hole and squirted silicone into it! It works perfectly and I've never had any failures! Take no heed of the inexperienced posters here, they don't know what they're talking about, they're only trying to scare you with irrelevant pictures!

Mike George mentions thermal expansion issues from using PVC or Wood embedded in the insulation causing cracks, this never happens because both the render and the insulation are flexible, the render has an embedded fiber-glass mesh layer to resist cracking.
- CommentAuthorViking House
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
Posted By: Mike GeorgeCan I suggest you go to your local Library and borrow a good book on timber deterioration and its causes.
Why don't you go away and get some experience instead of coming on here pretending to be the expert on EWI and other matters when clearly you're not!
You said timber EWI grounds would rot! They don't! How do I know? I tried it over 100 times!
You said timber EWI grounds would expand and cause cracks! They don't! How do I know? I tried it over 100 times!
You said PVC EWI grounds would expand and cause cracks! They don't! How do I know? I tried it 2-3 times because I had a few PVC sheets in the shed!
- CommentAuthorEd Davies
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
NaÃ¯ve question of the week, but, if conditions at some point in an EWI'd wall are such that rot of any wood there is at all likely isn't there some risk of mould at that point irrespective of the presence of wood? Less risk, but things are not so well controlled that simply avoiding wood is enough to remove all risk, surely?
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014 edited
Posted By: Viking House
Posted By: Mike GeorgeCan I suggest you go to your local Library and borrow a good book on timber deterioration and its causes.
Why don't you go away and get some experience instead of coming on here pretending to be the expert on EWI and other matters when clearly you're not!
You said timber EWI grounds would rot! They don't! How do I know? I tried it over 100 times!
You said timber EWI grounds would expand and cause cracks! They don't! How do I know? I tried it over 100 times!
You said PVC EWI grounds would expand and cause cracks! They don't! How do I know? I tried it 2-3 times because I had a few PVC sheets in the shed!

Miaaawww. put yur claws away Viking.

Apart from the personal insults (you have no idea how much experience I have with EWI or if I have ever done it myself) you present a good mix of straw man arguments and misquotes once again.

I did not say timber grounds would rot - I said it is an unacceptable risk and it is possible
I did not say timber grounds would expand and cause cracks - I said it is possible under extreme conditions particularly if wet timber freezes - Have you ever seen a video of what happens to a cube of concrete if you put a single match into it and pour water on it every day?
I certainly did not say PVC grounds would expand and cause cracks - I said it will expand deferentially to render - which it will. Google co-efficient of thermal expansion values if you don't believe me. I also said that plastic does not appear to be a problem as it is used widely as beads without any apparent problems.

I don't pretend to be an expert in anything - I do have a certain amount of experience in Construction; Lecturing; some formal qualifications; and the odd publication - I guess now that you've let the cat out of the bag that I don't know sh*t from chocolate pudding I won't be getting any more work
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
Posted By: Ed DaviesNaÃ¯ve question of the week, but, if conditions at some point in an EWI'd wall are such that rot of any wood there is at all likely isn't there some risk of mould at that point irrespective of the presence of wood? Less risk, but things are not so well controlled that simply avoiding wood is enough to remove all risk, surely?

Good question, I guess if the timber is wet then it may well be colder then the surrounding zone, though whether at dew point is another matter - too many variables I think (how far into the insulation zone the timber is for a start..
- CommentAuthorn2e4ewi
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
Dear All, after reading the last few comments that's it for me, no need to comment so bluntly, everyone has views, the person who said its never failed do they check every 5 years and replace mastic, just because it's worked before does not mean it should stay the same, to last 25 year is asking a lot of wood and keep in mind when that person who had the work done in 1999 moves out and someone news comes in and say puts a new hanging basket, use wood screws they never going to drill into the main building, if you wish to advice an email address I am happy to send you a photo by English heratage showing this issue, I have worked closly with the likes of the BRE, NICEIC, CAI, HSE, many top system suppliers and of course English Heratage, happy to email you details if it helps
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
That's a shame, and a shame that no-one has really engaged into a debate about your comments - I wonder why?

I get blunt because I get fed up of being misquoted - it's just one of several tactics used by those wishing to discredit others where they cannot otherwise counter the points made
- CommentAuthorRedDoor
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
While we're on the topic of timber with-in the insulation envelope, the old terraced houses round here have timber lintels to doorways, windows and also embedded into various unexpected bits of the walls. As the construction is vapour-permeable, and plenty of moisture will be generated inside the building, has wrapping it in EPS (I'll call it polystyrene because it looks and feels like it but it's grey) just created a lovely fungus factory?
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
Yes it is possible, the pic I posted shows such a lintol on an EWI job which has now been completed. It was of course removed.

As is very common in Victorian and Edwardian houses such lintols often have a void inboard of the lintol - warming up such wet rotting timber (by insulating) is not a smart move.

As existing render is rarely removed prior to EWI I wonder how many such lintols are just insulated over because no one bothers to drill a hole and see if there is wood behind?
- CommentAuthorViking House
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
Posted By: RedDoorWhile we're on the topic of timber with-in the insulation envelope, the old terraced houses round here have timber lintels to doorways, windows and also embedded into various unexpected bits of the walls. As the construction is vapour-permeable, and plenty of moisture will be generated inside the building, has wrapping it in EPS (I'll call it polystyrene because it looks and feels like it but it's grey) just created a lovely fungus factory?
I'm sorry Steve that you keep getting bad advise on this forum! Mike is incorrect! Externally insulation moves the lintel away from the condensation risk zone. The new weather-tight external render eliminates external moisture risk through cracks in the old inflexible cementitious renders.
Don't get bogged down on vapour diffusion through the wall, it will never put the structure at risk, concentrate on air-tightness its 200 times more important!
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014 edited
Viking, what am I incorrect about please? specifically?

Are you saying that leaving in rotten lintols on the outer side of solid walls is okay and that they won't deteriorate further?
- CommentAuthorViking House
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014
Posted By: Mike GeorgeViking, what am I incorrect about please? specifically?
Are you saying that leaving in rotten lintols on the outer side of solid walls is okay and that they won't deteriorate further?
Steve never said the lintels were rotten!
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 14th 2014 edited
Viking, what am I incorrect about please? specifically? spell it out for me please because I didn't say his lintols were rotten either
- CommentAuthorViking House
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2014 edited
Posted By: Mike GeorgeViking, what am I incorrect about?
Have a read of what you posted and judge for yourself! I wonder who's the funny one now!

First you said this!
Posted By: Mike GeorgeTimber should not be used behind or within the insulated zone of EWI systems - EVER!

When questioned whether you were talking from personal experience, or if this was your hunch? you pull in your horns a bit!
Posted By: Mike GeorgeGrounds similer to that queried by the OP will have fixings penetrating the system - which will inevitably lead to water ingress into the zone. Wet wood will rot. Warm wet wood may promote the growth of dry rot. Cold wet wood may freeze. Water expands when it freezes...leading to cracking, and further water ingress.

Then you backpedal!
Posted By: Mike GeorgeI did not say timber grounds would rot - I said it is an unacceptable risk and it is possible

You say this!
Posted By: Mike George Cold wet wood may freeze....leading to cracking, and further water ingress.

Then you back-pedal again!
Posted By: Mike GeorgeI did not say timber grounds would expand and cause cracks - I said it is possible under extreme conditions

Instead of letting on to be the resident expert here, you could have said "I don't have much experience with EWI but I think putting in timber grounds might be risky!"

n2e4ewi sells fixings for EWI to replace wooden grounds so his opinion here is biased.
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2014 edited
Viking, Once again you have not answered my question - Surely if I am so wrong about so many things it should be easy for you to disprove at least one of the things I have said?

I guess the fact that you once again resort to personal insults shows that you cannot prove my points wrong.

All you have done in your last post is take a series of things I have said in different posts and link them together - all out of context and putting a totally different spin on what I said -

I'm not going to waste my time picking through each misquote - I will just pick the main point to clarify.

I did say

Posted By: Mike George) Timber should not be used behind or within the insulated zone of EWI systems - EVER!

In fact I said it twice, the second time...

Posted By: Mike George
Posted By: Ed DaviesMike, in the context of the OP's query your saying not to use timber is quite reasonable but you did say â€œEVER!â€ - upper case, exclamation mark - so it does seem, in turn, reasonable to point out that this advice is not completely general to all EWI. Let's not get too wound up about it all.

Yes, I did say that... and I meant what I said. Don't use timber within the insulation zone -EVER (Seems clear to me I was talking specifics as I did say WITHIN the insulation zone. And I'm not wound up at all :)

Hardly backpedaling and I stand by it.

Your comment that n2e4ewi is bias is like the pot calling the kettle black - the fact that you are responsible for so many EWI installations in which you have used timber grounds is obviously something you clearly feel you need to defend - unfortunately insulting me and my credentials is hardly the way to go about doing so - it only serves to diminish your own arguments

Now If you want me to respond any further to you will you please tell me specifically what I am wrong about?
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 16th 2014 edited
Incidentally, can I direct you to another thread in which you spent a lot of time and effort telling me how wrong I was

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=6188&page=5#Item_25

Perhaps you would like to comment on the recent posts I have made there?
- CommentAuthorViking House
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2014 edited
Mike, like I said already, I've put marine ply grounds into EWI over 100 times and got a zero failure rate, you've done it how many times? Zero! but suddenly you've become the resident expert on EWI telling people what they should never ever do! Have the courage to say "Oh I could be mistaken, I've actually no experience with EWI". Your comments scare people, then you post photos of rotten lintels that have nothing to do with EWI and scare them even further! Its not helpful!
We externally insulated my sisters Timber Frame house 12 years ago, we put in marine-ply grounds for the down-pipes, I've often pulled the bracket to see if the screws are loose, this would indicate that the ply is rotten, its still good!

We don't do EWI any more so my comments aren't biased!

I read the deterioration of Lambda thread and your "scientific" test using a measuring tape, made me laugh! I've no need to comment because ST seems to have set you straight!
- CommentAuthorSteamyTea
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2014
Don't drag me into it.
- CommentAuthorMike George
- CommentTimeDec 17th 2014 edited
Yes Viking, a very poor tactic trying to drag others into what is really only you talking a load of crap about me. Your presumptuous comments about me just demonstrate you are quite happy to post any old crap whether you know it to be true or not - that doesn't really give you a lot of credibility does it...........

You have no idea how many EWI jobs I have done - I guess you don't know that I have been in the plastering trade on and off for more than thirty years.

And what is your trade background? Are you a plasterer by any chance? These hundreds of EWI jobs you have done- did you do them personally? or did you rely on teams of sub contractors?

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Housing - Renovation: Fixings into EWI post-installation