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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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  1.  
    I've been reading a few American books on timber buildings and have noticed that they don't seem to have any DPC or DPM in their concrete footings/slabs. Even basements don't seem to have any DPM. Some of them have perforated pipe beneath the footings which i guess is supposed to drain any water away from the footings. Concrete footings also tend to be insulated on the outside with polystyrene to prevent frost damage. Do they use different cement in the states or are we missing a trick?
  2.  
    We're missing a trick with the insulation, that's for sure.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2008
     
    > Concrete footings also tend to be insulated on the outside with polystyrene to prevent frost damage

    I believe that's to prevent frost heave rather than damage to the concrete. We also do something similar in the UK on clay soils.
  3.  
    Yes, but it also gives perimeter insulation, which is a better place for it than under the floor [IMO]
  4.  
    Yes, quite alot of building books available in the UK tend to be American which does have some different building methods to UK as well as focussing on some different priorities. Just to add to the confusion different states have different regulations and if your books were written, say, in the warmer Southern states there would be less emphasis on damp proofing and more on designing in allowances for HVAC installations and suchlike. I've got an American book called 'Foundations and concrete work for pros by pros' which dedicates a whole chapter to damp and water proofing. I've also got a very useful UK book called 'Timber Framed Housing' by D.O.Hilton and M.A.Oliver which tells you just about all you need to know about timber framed buildings in the UK. Hope this helps.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2008
     
    Concrete itself is virtually damp proof especially above ground.
    • CommentAuthorfuncrusher
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2008
     
    Sorry, but Tony's comment is misleading in general as 'concrete' has a vast range of specifications which include variations in pouring techniques etc. Those commonly encountered in domestic or DIY work are certainly not damproof. Quite the opposite in fact. There are however special types which are entirely damproof which are often used in large commercial basements, eg two stories below the river Thames. These can be very economical as no additional damproofing or cavity structure is required, - but require specialist contractors. This avoids the achilles heel of all basements: poor workmanship in associated damproofing. It is possible that US contractors use such concrete.

    There are also special chemicals which are routinely applied to the surface of concrete structures to reduce damp penetration by around 90%, but these are not available to consumers for safety reasons, and are not as far as I know used as a substitute for a DPC/DPM
  5.  
    US/Canadian construction uses something called a "sill gasket" between the top of the concrete foundation and the wood sill plate that the framing is attached to. This is to prevent damp entering the wood and rotting it. However, in many places in the US and Canada, basements are the norm and so the wooden structure is usually a fair way above ground level anyway - in a basement that's 8 feet deep, probably only 6 feet or less is below grade.

    All that said, the 110 year old house I live in in Montreal has no dpc/dpm of any kind. The floor of the basement is about 4 feet below grade and is concrete directly on the ground; it is dry with no signs of any kind of damp. The walls are 36" thick limestone going to about 2 feet above grade and then the solid brick walls (no cavity) sit directly on top of this with the floor joists resting on the thick foundation wall. There don't appear to be any problems with damp - though the basement is heated. Perhaps this is the trick that makes a DPC/DPM unnecessary. The footings of the building use "French" drains. The frost level is about 42" below grade (maximum) and so pipes and the like are usually at 48" below grade.

    The new house we built used a concrete foundation about 6 feet below grade at the deepest point. As there was a lot of water found during excavation on one side of the property this side was coated with a bitumen spray. The concrete basement floor has neither insulation nor DPC/DPM and is dry as a bone and not cold either (going back to the debate about underfloor insulation).

    It was certainly a revelation moving from damp obsessed UK construction (an old cottage I had in Glossop supposedly had damp problems and we were told required a chemical DPC as a holdback clause on the mortgage - after three quotes we decided not to bother as one implied water was flowing in at a rate equivalent to Niagara falls and one said really there was no problem) to a place where it is never even mentioned and cavity wall construction is pretty much unheard of. My late father was in the concrete business and it was my understanding that pretty much any conventional mix made with Portland cement is essentially waterproof. We always enjoyed looking at the defunct concrete-hulled barge lying abandoned in the mud in the RIver Humber :)

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2008
     
    Fun are you confusing waterproof with damp proof?

    A mix of 3:1 sharp sand: opc is waterproof/damp proof -- pretty similar to concrete.

    Clearly trying to hold back a pressure of water is different ( it usually finds gaps and cracks ) as opposed to going through the concrete.
  6.  
    They don't have a DPC in France either - they have a vide sanitaire or crawl space whistling underneath. Looking at our engineering drawings, we have 85 cm concrete pillars on top of 60 cm of ballast, then a 20 cm concrete slab with 25 cm of insulation on top. In the cave / cellar, there is waterproofing - but I'm not entirely sure what. There doesn't appear to be any insulation round the concrete pillars (60 cm are above ground level).
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2008
     
    Paul, the reason we have damp obsessed construction in the UK is due to the high water tables. I lived for a time in Denton, just up the road from you in Glossop and we had water sitting permanently 400mm beneath the floor joists. Yes they used engineering bricks in the footings but it wasn't considered a big deal we still got a standard mortgage on it as did our purchasers
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    Couple of disconnected points:- Many houses in the USA actually have sump pumps, that is the basements leak water which is pumped out and a dry room built within the basement area.
    My barn in Wensleydale typically has the water table about 8" below the flagstone level, and a mate of mine in the New Forest has a well in his garden, last weekend the water level in it was within 10" of the grass surrounding it! No sign of damp in his 1920s house whose ground floor is less then 18" higher then the lawn.
    Frank
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    Is it built with lime mortar?
  7.  
    Posted By: chuckeyMany houses in the USA actually have sump pumps, that is the basements leak water which is pumped out and a dry room built within the basement area.


    I can attest to that fact in Canada too. Most new houses in Montreal are built with basements and many of those require sump pumps. My 110 year old house has one as the water table is literally inches below the basement flow - yet we don't have a DPC and have no problems with rising damp, though the stone basement walls are sometimes damp to the touch, depending how much rain there's been or how much snow has melted.

    I remember when I lived in Glossop I was somewhat obsessed with rising damp, having been given dire warnings by the inspector when we bought an old house. Various chemical DPC companies also painted grim pictures with visions of water pouring through the walls and tanking up to head height etc. Finally one of them said it didn't seem so bad and recommended not to do anything. Which is what we did. Never had a problem. I suspect most of the damp was condensation in cold dark corners, rather than true rising damp.

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorAdam0734
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2008
     
    @ Paul, ref: "There don't appear to be any problems with damp - though the basement is heated. Perhaps this is the trick that makes a DPC/DPM unnecessary."

    There's an interesting bit in Burkinshaw (Diagnosing Damp), where the author describes significant damp problems in the converted basement of a Victorian house, and then says "Interestingly, the house next door, which was of identical construction and in the same ownership, incorporated a cellar of similar proportions. That cellar was used for general storage, and was where the central heating boiler was installed . . . This building seemed to be coping with walls that were certainly damp but did not appear to be physically damaged in any way after well over a century . . ."

    I find texts which deal with property issues outside my 'local area' useful; I wouldn't part with my Victorian House Manual for worlds, even though I don't live in the UK and wouldn't see a house of exactly that type. That's not important; what is important is the clues that a book like that might give me as to problems I'd face here. Obviously the text'd need to be taken with a grain of salt, as the local conditions here are not those in the UK, but as a pointer it has its uses.
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