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General: Loop-in lighting circuits - using switch

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    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeFeb 28th 2015
     
    Replaced with two Surewire junction boxes:-
      DSC_0056.JPG
  2.  
    I'd not come across those before - look an excellent alternative to the old ceiling rose arrangement.
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: Simon StillI'd not come across those before - look an excellent alternative to the old ceiling rose arrangement.


    I saw a friend using them and thought they were pretty nifty. I think they are quite new, I got them at Toolstation. The are relatively expensive, but make things a lot easier if you're not used to wiring. I always struggle to get several conductors into one terminal - you get one in and another comes out etc. Getting all the upstairs light junctions in one accessible place rather than a spiders web of junction boxes that I didn't understand without laboriously tracing them all seemed worthwhile.

    The advantage is that all the cables can be cut and stripped to the same length and the cables are also held down with a little clamp inside the box (like inside a plug) so the junction itself isn't under strain. And it's all marked with L1, S1, L2, S2/L, N, E, loop so it's not easy to get mixed up. The lid also has space for labels so you know which pair of light and switch is which.

    There are two types. One like these is for a number of independent light and switch combinations and the other is for one switch and multiple lights.

    Ed
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2015
     
    They do look good, any chance of a picture with the lids off?
  5.  
    Posted By: SteamyTeaThey do look good, any chance of a picture with the lids off?


    I don't have one to hand atm, but this is an illustration of one. To put a wire in or take it out you press down the connector thing.
      sw4l-MF2.jpg
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 1st 2015
     
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2015
     
    toolstation 34397 for instance. You are right not cheap!!!
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2015
     
    When will we get sockets and switches with these tool free wiring connections do you think?
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeMar 3rd 2015 edited
     
    Posted By: borpinWhen will we get sockets and switches with these tool free wiring connections do you think?


    Doesn't seem like rocket science!
    • CommentAuthorGotanewlife
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2015 edited
     
    Hmm I am not convinced by these Surewire boxes (or maybe I should have patented my design and I am sore!). In my master bedroom I have (underway - so 'will' have), independantly switched his and her over bed reading lights (instead of bed-side table lights), central pendant light (2-way to a switch co-located with an overbed light), lights over dressing table, lights illuminating the wardrobes and an LED multi-colour strip over the wardrobes cos wife wanted it. Aside from the strip, not excessive for a big modern bedroom - all LEDs.

    So 7 lights switches (one pair being a 2-way). This is pic of my solution. £4 for the box, £2 for glands, £3 for earth block (I only had a big earth block left but 8 screw plenty). Better cable security and a load more flexibility, especially when you think that for a 2 way switch (if I understand correctly) you will lose 3 of the above Surewire's 6 sections. The only pain is the neutrals. And the 20mm conduit will have a cable tie on the inside of the box - this works very well. Also bear in mind that at least 2 of the switch locations really must have conduit to them given the large number of wires needed, only one of which is an earth, and the Surewire can't deal with that.

    I hadn't even worked out exactly it would work at the beginning, I just kept feeding the right number of wires in - now I can chop off the 2 unused plastic terminals - hey I might even label them! This way is so much better for the amateur (compared to WAGO type free blocks) because you can see easily where all the wires come from and go to all laid out in a line.
      P1300900.JPG
    • CommentAuthorYanntoe
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2015
     
    Does anyone use the twin brown(live) cable/earth rather than the brown/blue/earth when using the loop in at the switch? Just seems more logical.???

    Or am I being a bit OCD, as I'd probably put a red bit of tape on the end of it when it returned to the switch.

    Or have I completely misunderstood .......

    Feedback welcome - don't pull your punches

    Cheers

    Ian
    • CommentAuthorYanntoe
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2015
     
    Doh .....
    Ignore last comment - I was clearly having "a moment"!

    Ian:shamed:
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2015
     
    Given a choose, using a normal rose type setup, I will use cables with a different colour outside for the switches then for the power. For example connect power between all the roses with gray cable, but use white cable down to each switch.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2015
     
    My plan is to bring all of the wires individually back to a central point then do wiring between switches and lights there. Actually, two central points: one in each loft with some “trunk” wiring going between them. With my house layout this will likely not result in much more wire being needed as the central points will be pretty much over the most intensive areas for lights and switches anyway.

    A friend did this on a barn conversion and found it very easy to set up once he'd labelled all the wires in the cupboard. Somehow he didn't think to do it when he first put them all in.

    The central points will have two separate cupboards next to each other, one for low voltage (230 V) and one for ELV (48 V nominal and below). Not sure what'll happen with the ELV - I'll start with simple mains LEDs everywhere then think about what technology makes sense later.
  15.  
    Sounds good .
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2015
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Yanntoe</cite>Doh .....
    Ignore last comment - I was clearly having "a moment"!

    Ian<img title=":shamed:" alt=":shamed:" src="/newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/shamed.gif"></img></blockquote>
    I do not use twin brown as you still need to determine which way round to wire the switch. Just use the standard T&E and fit brown sleeve over the blue at the switch and any junction box/ceiling rose.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2015
     
    You need to note that Wago connectors and boxes for lighting are not classed as maintenance free. It is likely I am informed that if they were put through for the MF testing approval they would pass but the testing has not been done due the cost of doing so, and the fact that the light boxes are accessible via the light fitting hole in the ceiling and therefore do not need to be a maintenance free box.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2015
     
    Forgot to mention that the other reason for not favouring the use of twin brown is that an electrician doing first fix wiring at a friends new build inadvertently picked up the wrong drum of cable and wired a considerable amount of the feed wiring in twin brown instead of brown and blue. Only found out after ceilings were plastered so they had to do a lot of work determining which was the live and sleeve the neutral with blue sleeve.
  19.  
    yep , done that
    • CommentAuthorSimon Still
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2015 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: revor</cite>You need to note that Wago connectors and boxes for lighting are not classed as maintenance free. It is likely I am informed that if they were put through for the MF testing approval they would pass but the testing has not been done due the cost of doing so, and the fact that the light boxes are accessible via the light fitting hole in the ceiling and therefore do not need to be a maintenance free box.</blockquote>

    Is that up to date? Wago connectors are being sold as maintenance free and this seems to indicate OK

    https://www.wagobox.com/docs/files/wagobox-mf-qna-v4.pdf
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2015
     
    Posted By: revorYou need to note that Wago connectors and boxes for lighting are not classed as maintenance free. It is likely I am informed that if they were put through for the MF testing approval they would pass but the testing has not been done due the cost of doing so, and the fact that the light boxes are accessible via the light fitting hole in the ceiling and therefore do not need to be a maintenance free box.

    Interesting. My electrician had already told me that the connectors were approved, so perhaps there's some misinformation floating around. I'll ask him about it next time I see him. But his answer to accessible boxes, and to labelling, is to put the boxes and labels in as and when required but if the owner expresses a dislike, he points out that whether or not somebody chooses to paint or plaster over the offending item after he's gone is nothing to do with him!
  22.  
    Are there not 2 types of 'Wago' connectors: those that you shove the wire in (spring loaded) and those where you push down a bar - perhaps that's the confusion.
  23.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Gotanewlife</cite>Are there not 2 types of 'Wago' connectors: those that you shove the wire in (spring loaded) and those where you push down a bar - perhaps that's the confusion.</blockquote>

    Yes, but that note covers both.

    I've not used Wago yet but they seem like a good idea to me. I've found loose and overstuffed terminal boxes in previous houses and melted chocolate box connectors above ceiling spots.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2015
     
    I think the issue is the two types of wagobox, the complete system being the connector AND the box has to be tested to get the approval. It seem only the larger wagobox is approved.
  25.  
    Posted By: Simon Stillmelted chocolate box connectors above ceiling spots.
    LEDS are the answer then:wink:
  26.  
    That's what I was installing when I found the melted parts!
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2015
     
    This is the response I got from Wago in reply to my query as to whether Wago light was MF.

    "At this point in time we can't put the MF symbol on the Wagobox-Light as we haven't subjected this assembly to the required additional testing in BS5733. That's not to say that the 224 terminals and Wagobox-Light would not pass, it's more likely that they would pass but until this is verified properly we can't put the MF symbol on the product.

    MF testing is extremely expensive and we decided to invest our money in the Wagobox as this has much greater flexibility than the Wagobox-Light which in the vast majority of situations will be accessible through a hole cut for a downlight.

    I hope this information is helpful. If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to get in touch again."



    With best regards,
    Wagobox Support
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 10th 2015 edited
     
    Looking at their web site they seem to make it quite clear that the standard Wagobox is MF but the Wagobox-Light isn't:

    Wagobox:

    https://www.wagobox.com/shop/junction/wagobox-junction-boxes-in-grey-for-use-with-wago-773-and-222-terminals-price-is-for-pack-of-6.html

    Product code iPCC-1
    BS EN60670-22 Compliant.
    BS 5733 MF accessory compliant system when used with Wago 222 and 773 connectors. Use as directed in the BS 5733 MF instructions. Colour Grey
    Ingress Protection: IP2X
    Dimensions for single junction box: 39mm x 44mm x 108mm


    Wagobox-Light:

    https://www.wagobox.com/shop/junction/wagobox-light-junction-boxes-for-use-with-wago-224-101-224-112-or-wagobox-light-modular-terminals-price-is-for-pack-of-6.html

    Product code iPCC-2G
    BS EN60670-22 Compliant.
    Colour: Grey
    Maximum connector capacity 4 x 224-112 or 4 x 224-101 connectors
    Ingress Protection: IP2X
    Dimensions for single junction box: 39mm x 29mm x 95mm

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