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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37220703

    Smart energy revolution 'could help to avoid UK blackouts'

    Turn me on (and off)

    Marriott Hotels has a contract that temporarily turns off its water-chilled air conditioning system at times of peak demand. The water temperature drops so slightly that guests do not notice the difference.

    Japanese electronics giant Sharp is devising controls and software to allow solar storage batteries in homes to sell energy back to the grid when the demand (and price) are high. The firm says it expects the system to pay its way without subsidy by 2018.

    Aggregate Industries - which makes road materials - is helping to smooth spikes in the grid even though it generates no power at all. The bitumen in giant containers stored near Heathrow airport can be stored at temperatures of between 130 and 185C. If a rise in demand is predicted for later in the day, the company is advised by a computer to heat the bitumen to the maximum temperature, then turn off the power until the demand - and price - subsides. Aggregate is also rewarded for gobbling up extra energy when there is a glut of wind power on the grid. Head of sustainibility, Donna Hunt, said: "I think this is a no-brainer for us because we're saving energy. We're not generating carbon whilst the power is off, and we're making an income for allowing our assets to be used flexibly."
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    Not saving energy, saving buying expensive energy, and doing the best thing overall.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyNot saving energy
    Consider the 'embodied energy' of energy e.g. embodied in constructing and running expensive infrastructure needed to cope with peaks and troughs but lying idle much of the time - compared with 'smart' DSR (demand side response) which makes that unnecessary.

    That saving of embodied energy is just as real as any saving in kWh supplied.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    er? No.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    Why is Aggregate Industries not using CHP to heat the bitumen?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    Posted By: tonyer? No.
    Why?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    Posted By: ringiWhy is Aggregate Industries not using CHP to heat the bitumen?
    Because that's just an alias for burning fossil, like centralised electricity generation, except the latter has an increasing possibility of being renewable sourced. CHP investment is part of the fossil-dependence lock-in, just as surely as more gas power stations.

    If you said 'Why is Aggregate Industries not using wind/solar to heat the bitumen?' then you'd be talking.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    ....the French DO have 'smart meters', and 'hollow' or low hours.
    EDF give you an advance notice of the changes to the cheap times, to allow you to set up washing machines, bread-makers etc etc.....
    :smile:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    Almost smart, not really but at least they give information, but then so would a notice board or a website.
  1.  
    Raise VAT on energy from 5% to 20% and use the monies raised to subsidize improvements in energy efficiency for families and individuals in fuel poverty. When we had ever increasing fuel prices, all the talk in the pub was about loft & cavity insulation, double glazing and people selling their gas guzzling 4x4's. That's all off the agenda for most people now that energy is so much cheaper.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    Not vat, it needs to be anther tax, so companies can't claim it back.
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    There is nothing new in this - it's called firm and non firm (or interruptible) supply

    Many energy intensive industries agree to maintain a certain firm capacity but agree to losing their interruptible capacity as required to assist in demand management.

    If Marriot were serious, they could adopt ice manufacture and storage overnight when demand is low and energy is cheaper, for use the following day. Although you do have to wonder why they need such a huge amount of cooling in UK hotels - poor buildings perhaps

    Regards

    Barney
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    Posted By: tonyAlmost smart, not really but at least they give information, but then so would a notice board or a website.
    A notice board wouldn't allow variable pricing which, if I understand correctly, French smart meters do. Like daytime/E10/E7/whatever but much more flexible.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    I think that better demand control i.e. turning things on and off to smooth the curve, does save energy. It allows for better production, so coal and gas plants can run at peak efficiency, pumped storage can be 'filled' during these times, wind and solar can be better scheduled in, the grid can reduce transmission losses to certain parts of the country.

    It is a bit like a car on an economy run rather than a teenager driving it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 31st 2016
     
    I like that. I suppose that makes me a teenager.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2016
     
    Ed, I agree that French meters probably can charge a different rate but this in itself does not save energy, it does save money.

    Reducing peak demand does not save energy it shifts when the energy is used.

    This can save building a power station, it could allow us to use less fossil fuel/more solar,wind or hydro.

    When we start mixing economics into this it all gets very complicated.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2016
     
    Posted By: tony: “Reducing peak demand does not save energy it shifts when the energy is used.”

    Strictly you're (almost [¹]) right, of course. However, “saving energy” in the simple sense of reducing the total number of joules delivered to the end users isn't the point; the point is to reduce the damage (economic and environmental) done by converting/harvesting that energy in the first place.

    E.g., you could “save” energy on a cold sunny day by closing the curtains to prevent sunlight warming your house beneficially but that would be stupid. Yes, you've “saved” the use of some joules but they were free and harmless anyway.

    However, I have had a bit of a rant at DamonHD and friends on the subject:

    https://edavies.me.uk/2016/07/grid-intensity/

    The argument is that essentially all incremental generation (over what nuclear and renewables are producing, which with the UK grid as it is now (almost?) never match demand) comes from gas so that's the CO₂/kWh hour figure you should be using irrespective of the overall (average) grid intensity. So, yes, it matters less when you use electricity than some people think. But it still matters to some extent.

    [¹] Actually, spreading the load more evenly reduces the losses in the grid and distribution networks but that's a fairly minor effect. I²R and all that. 1 amp through a 1 ohm resistor for an hour dissipates 1 watt·hour. Half an amp through the same resistor dissipates 0.25 W and to deliver the same amp·hour would take two hours so the total loss would be 0.5 Wh. Total grid and distribution losses are only about 7% so this isn't going to save a lot.

    However, part of the reason that these losses are reasonably low is that generation is often pretty local to use. My guess would be that having less peaky demand would make that easier. I.e., part of the penalty of big peaks might not just be the use of sub-optimal types of generation and bigger I²R losses but also use of sub-optimally located generation.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2016 edited
     
    Easiest way to reduce peak demand is to stagger regional TV output


    Surely few enough people watch TV live now (and dropping fast) that this is irrelevant, or soon will be. The 'advert break' issue has essentially solved itself.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2016
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesHowever, I have had a bit of a rant at DamonHD and friends on the subject:

    https://edavies.me.uk/2016/07/grid-intensity/" >https://edavies.me.uk/2016/07/grid-intensity/

    So should that be kWh/Plate, cup and spoon
    :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2016
     
    kgCO2e/plate, cup and spoon. Or kgPM2.5 if you prefer. Or is that molPM2.5? Don't worry about the kWh.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2016
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesOr kgPM2.5 if you prefer. Or is that molPM2.5
    Never got my head around the mol, so kg for me.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2016
     
    Posted By: wookey
    Easiest way to reduce peak demand is to stagger regional TV output

    Surely few enough people watch TV live now (and dropping fast) that this is irrelevant, or soon will be. The 'advert break' issue has essentially solved itself.

    I suspect a lot of people still watch live sport on TV and that the people that watch soaps tend to be more traditional in their habits. So I wouldn't be surprised if the advert peaks survive changing viewing habits.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeSep 7th 2016
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaNever got my head around the mol
    It's just a count of things (atoms, molecules, shrews, elephants, whatever). A lot of things. 1 dozen shrews have (typically) 24 eyes. 1 mole of (normal) shrews have a few more than 24x10²³ legs, that is, 4×NA [¹].

    My point, though, was that I have no idea how the harm for small particulates should be evaluated but my guess would be that just looking at the mass would be rather naïve.

    [¹] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avogadro_constant
    • CommentAuthorJonnyJW
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2017
     
    I've noticed quite a few new companies which are offering to enable DSR for smaller buildings. Things like smart plugs and companies that will aggregate the newly smart appliances to provide grid balancing and frequency response (to maintain 50Hz on National Grid) services. It seems like the savings/revenues previously only available to hotel chain, supermarkets and heavy industry, may sometime soon be available to domestic and small commercial users.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2017
     
    Good news, especially as they seem to doing it with using so called smart meters.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2017
     
    JonnyJW - please explain - DSR?
    tony - do you mean 'with' or 'without' smart meters? surely we'd like to achieve 'smart' without relying on these crude electro-smog-generators?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: JonnyJWto maintain 50Hz on National Grid
    At the moment this is pretty irrelevant as the frequency comes about from predictive loads i.e. they start up some extra generation several hours before the peak. This often causes the frequency, and grid voltage to rise before the peak, drop during the peak and rise again as the peak dminishes. That extra generation is is wound down just after the peak to stop over frequency and over voltage (which screws up domestic PV generation).
    If we had large scale, two way smart metering i.e. the ability to load shed, then a new predictive algorithm will be needed.
    This new algorithm could assume a certain amount of load shedding during peak times (turn those fridges and freezers off, and some thermal storage). This would allow for less capacity to be put online to cope with the peak, but it will not eliminate it.
    • CommentAuthorJonnyJW
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2017
     
    Not sure if it is irrelevant, £200m of contracts were recently awarded for frequency response contracts - this went mainly to battery developments where a sub 0.5second response time is required.
    http://media.nationalgrid.com/press-releases/uk-press-releases/corporate-news/national-grid-brings-forward-new-technology-with-enhanced-frequency-response-contracts/
    Seems to be an area of interest for National Grid, but I do need to understand more about the fundamentals of balancing.

    I have noticed that companies like GridDuck, Limejump and Upside Energy are looking to bring this approach to the masses at a domestic / small commercial level. You can imagine how a heat pump with underfloor heating could be turned down slightly, as part of an "aggregated balancing" service, without having an impact of the building occupants.
    (PS no I don't work for any of these companies!)

    Hi Tom, DSR is Demand Side Response (as mentioned above, but half a year ago :) meaning loads that can be turned down when the demand is high.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2017
     
    Sorry, I meant without smart meters
    • CommentAuthorJonnyJW
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2017
     
    Indeed, smart meters are turning into a very expensive and unfunny joke. And I find those adverts on TV so patronising - I can already read my meter thank you very much.
   
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