Yes, Rob's fan was what inspired me to build mine. In my case there was no need to remove the window glass or any hinges, we just opened the window! There's no need for a particularly tight fit either, just a roll of airtight but not permanently sticky tape.

No experience but pretty sure I've seen thermal imaging with obvious air leaks - I guess you need to depressurise to see this - that is, suck cold air in, not blow it out. I tend to think this is also a problem with using the back of a hand to detect air leaks - you miss hot air being expelled (especially at the top of buildings - stack effect).

Don't you just hate people who put screws in that neatly!!!!

Posted By: SteamyTea

Posted By: GotanewlifeDon't you just hate people who put screws in that neatly!!!!

Not a lot else to do in NZhttps:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/cool.gif" alt="" title="" >

Yes of course we pride ourselves on it..

MgO SIP construction so it sort of matters..

Thanks for all the help here. I have included most details below, though I am sure some of us could have beaten my sourcing.

The Reckoning.

The final project, after T identified a damp issue when stripping back to redecorate, involved:

1 - Boarding out approx 45 sqm of wall. Using CLS, 50mm celotex, vapour membrane, 12.5mm plasterboard. Actually used 30-32sqm of celotex and ~42 sqm of plasterboard. That is the clue that about 30% of the insulated walls are doors or windows.
2 - Loft insulation to 300 or 400mm.
3 - Fitting PIV fan and replace bathroom / kitchen extractors. Shaving 10mm off a couple of doors to help air circulation between rooms.
4 - A range of bits and pieces as required, such as pipe lagging in loft, CO alarm etc.

Ventilation:

Nuaire PIV Fan: £290
Airflow Icon 25 extractor fan with shutters for bathroom: app. £100 incl. timer overrun module.
Vent Axia Lo Carbon Tempra P HR Extractor Fan for kitchen: £150

* Loft

Insulated existing loft hatch (celotex cutoffs plus piping).
Loft insulation to be done free to 270mm. £20 survey charge. May be an extra charge if I ask for 370mm or 440mm.

* Boarding Out

Done traditionally with battens not dot and dab so that there are places to hang things if required. 50mm celotex. Vapour membrane. 12.5mm plasterboard.

50mm celotex: 1200x450 from B&Q @ £3.40 each (offer now ended) approx 60 off ~£6.30 per sqm. Equivalent to £18 for an 8 x 4 heet.

CLS 38x63mm 2.4m approx 60 off. Wickes @1.89 each.

Plasterboard: 1.8 x .9m small sheets from B&Q approx 25 off. For ease of handling. Approx £4.60 each = £3.00 per sqm.

Plaster skim: £350

Vapour membrane. Wickes basic roll. One @ £18.

* Incidentals

Various incidentals done because it was silly not to, eg sockets replaced single to double if it needed moving out.
Radiators put into 300mm flexi hoses.
Expanding foam and plasterboard screws.
Pipe lagging.
CO alarm for boiler in loft now that there is an air intake up there.
etc.

I will also be rebating a portion of one month's rent for disturbance as we did not see this coming, and covering deorative materials paid by T that are now behind the boarding.

*Totals

Roughly £1000-£1100 on materials and kit.
Plus 10-12 days or so of time, including a couple of days from me.
Plus Plasterer.
Plus partial rent rebate etc and replacement wallpaper etc.

So total cost is something like £2.5 - 3k. Call it 2.5k without the rebates to the tenant.

I do not see how that could sensibly have been much more economical.

* Estimated Viability

Existing EPC score is 54 for Efficiency = very top of E.

Existing 2015 EPC estimates energy costs as £1200/yr, which I think is little low - long thin house. For T I estimate the expected bills to be £1500-1600 / year or 1200-1300 if they get the correct tariff.

Normal sources of heat loss are taken to be 25% roof and 35% walls in a pre-insulated house.

The EPC suggests that potential savings are £350-400 per year through EWI/IWI and doesn't mention loft insulation.

We have boarded out approx 65% of the external walls of the main rooms / bedrooms (kitchen excepted), and half of the rest is chimney breast, heavily insulated the loft, and reduced humidity with a Heat Recovery ventilation.

So I am estimating saving 50% of the possible through the wall savings estimated by the EPC (they say £349 so £175) for insulating plus half of the heat lost through the loft (say 12.5% of £1400 per year = £175).

On the loft we have increased insulation significantly. For the walls we have not done a complete job and only given those parts insulated a u value of around 0.35-36 (render, 225mm brick, plaster, 10-12mm airgap, 50mm celotex with approx 12% 63mm battens by area sans airgap, 12.5mm plasterboard, skim).

So I make those savings at 30% of heating bills or approx £350-370 a year or £30 a month to the tenant.

Crude payback period is around 7-8 years, which is OK, and I am looking for T energy bills to be under £1000 if they move their tariff. I might get an extra £10-15 a month of rent as my share of that saving when we adjust the rent in 3 years, if Ts have been educated by their lower bills.

As LL my main way to get that 2.5 to 3k back is if I avoid 2 changes of tenant, ie treble length of tenancy, which tend to cost £1000-2000 each around here, considering recruitment charges, void losses, admin and paperwork, and property maintenance. This T redecorated themselves, which is my preferred make-it-simpler-for-everyone approach when they have a dog.

I think I may do an EPC, just to see how far it gets and lock in the evidence. I think it will go well into the Ds but will perhaps need a new boiler and room thermostats to reach a C.

That's all folks, and is my best current solution to the Dilemma of the title.

I'm happy to try and answer any detailed questions.

Ferdinand

I love them but the want money from you if you want in on things.

Absolutely, if EPCs are used to enforce more policy they are going to have to be a lot more thorough. Mandatory air tightness testing springs to mind.

Posted By: SteamyTeaNot a lot else to do in NZ

Odd comment given that it is a country absolutely brimming with fine things to do.

Legal requirement to have valid EPC available as the property is placed on rental market for some years now

Posted By: wookeyWhy not? _All_ the tenants can't be too dumb to know that a better one will save them several hundred quid/yr, surely, at least not after their first house? If I was renting I'd damn well want to know the EPC rating.

Apart from the fact that few people are that bothered by running costs, until they get the big bills, EPCs tell you virtually nothing about such costs. They largely reflect the amount of renewable energy generation that you have installed.

A while ago I did a bit of playing with SADP and discovered that changing the amount of insulation has virtually no effect on the EPC rating. Changing the fuel you use for heating has a big effect. Good results if you use natural gas, bad results if you use solid fuel, even if it's wood you harvest yourself and replace. The best fiddle is to add PV. Our house is about a D without PV, with the amount of PV now installed it's an A and the running costs (for heating) haven't changed at all.

I know EPC is very shoddy (and a passivehouse can easily get a C), but hadn't appreciated that it's done on gas _price_ not kWH? Boggle.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: wookey</cite>ferdinand2000 wrote:

<blockquote>EPC reports, which have some value in documenting what is present in a house (eg insulation levels) do not affect rent levels, so there is no financial incentive to improve and invest.</blockquote>

Why not? _All_ the tenants can't be too dumb to know that a better one will save them several hundred quid/yr, surely, at least not after their first house? If I was renting I'd damn well want to know the EPC rating. I have heard from my friends that they tend not to see the EPC info until _after_ they've picked a property, but presumably it's actually supposed to be available as part of the advertised info?</blockquote>

The numbers are *very* available, and have been required by law to be so since for some years.

The LA is required to have the information, and the prospective T can ask, and Trading Standards are responsible for enforcing it.

But anyway, it has all been on a free public database online since 2012, and all you need is the postcode and house number.

If your friends don't check the running cost of an item until after they have chosen it then I think they may qualify for the "dumb" category. But people *buy* houses without really checking properly because they are pretty and well-presented, never mind just renting it. The "house Doctor" is still gong strong.

Here is an article from March 2012, explaining what would be happening.
https://www.property118.com/what-do-april-12-changes-to-epcs-mean-to-us-as-landlords/25256/

Tenants now have a right to enforce improvments (if they sort out grants and finance etc).

Ferdinand

Ringi, this was the arrangement with a Green Deal loan, which doesn't exist anymore unless the landlord took one out at the time.
The Chancellor has announced last September that landlords will have to pay for improvements themselves with a possible top limit of £5,000. This hasn't been put in law as yet, but might well go this way with a possible new grant scheme of some sort - just dreaming about a general grant scheme.

> i'd not be surprised to see the epc standards required for a rented property to be tightened faster than currently planned

I think that may be affected by what happens in April 2018, depending on the impact of the rental of properties with EPCs of below E becoming an offence with a fine of up to £4000.

Unless the politicians are not paying attention.

Gotanewlife>Don't you just hate people who put screws in that neatly!!!!

Don't hate em, join em:

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