https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/treatments/saltless_water_softeners.html

I'm looking for a 'undersink' unit (https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/Your_Scale_Centurion_Undersink_Cartridge.html) but more detail on the page above. Trying to work out if it actually works or not. I can't find anyone else in the Uk selling them which makes me suspicious

"Our Scale Centurion is a proven and fully tested technology.
It works by extracting harmful dissolved limescale from your water via a patented process.
The Scale Centurion beads mimic the natural tendency of dissolved limescale to crystallise by forming microscopic hard crystals on the media surface. But it accelerates the process before the scale can stick to pipe and other surfaces further downstream.
Once the microscopic crystals grow large enough, they are freed from the surface by the water pressure / flow.
When the Scale Centurion treated water dries on surfaces, these crystals form a fine residue that is easily wiped off without any need for scouring cleansers. Often you won't see any residue at all.
Please note our salt fee softeners do NOT use Polyphosphates. These remove only 81% of Scale, release chemicals into the water and require regular replacement.
The unique media in our softeners create a ceramic template which allows the calcium ions to form into non-scaling crystals (guaranteed). "

I am sure there was a large discussion about these, or something similar. It involved a woman who was the importer.
Do a search on here and see what you can find.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Simon Still</cite><a href="https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/treatments/saltless_water_softeners.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/treatments/saltless_water_softeners.html</a> </blockquote>

Shop around. That first web site says...

"The usual price is £597 - Our special offer price is £497 - all inclusive" and
"The replacement anti-scale media costs just £147. (It will last you a further 2 plus years"

While here..
https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/no-salt-softener-single-unit-20l-min.html

Its "only" £297.

but the casing appears to be a reasonably standard water filter case so you might be able to make your own using their "magic" filter in a third party case for less.

Would I buy one? Not a chance.

Looks like critical review of "Template Assisted Crystallization" here..

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html#EPI

Jury still out it seems.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: djh</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: Simon Still</cite>I'm looking for a 'undersink' unit</blockquote>
What do you intend to use the processed water for?</blockquote>

My Espresso machine/water dispenser in our fridge/freezer. The plan is to take the fridge apart and by pass the internal filter (which are meant to be replaced 6 monthly. Genuine cartridges are criminally expensive, but even using cheap generics I'll save money).

Advice from a coffee forum (!) was to use Brita as per
http://www.brita.co.uk/brita/en-gb/ppd/purity-c-quell-st/purity_c_quell_st.grid

Designed for the catering industry, high capacity cartridges (so only need replacing annually) and can pick them up at a good price on eBay. I

Espresso and fridge cooled tap water, rather a western middle class problem this isn't it

Not sure why, but these lyrics stick in my head... https://youtu.be/xk2QbCDRP0U?t=1m11s

Anyone know why do water chillers need softened water at all? If the water tastes bad, its not because of lime carbonates, look at sales of 'mineral' water.

Maybe due to chlorine, but 'assisted crystallization' won't remove that.

Posted By: TimSmallNot sure why, but these lyrics stick in my head

I hate Nerys Hughes.
There will be trouble in Trumpton

Posted By: WillInAberdeenDJH, if you are worried about your calcium intake, you wont find any meaningful amount by drinking tap water.

I'm not worried about my intake of calcium. I would be worried about my intake of sodium if I drank lots of softened water.

Posted By: WillInAberdeen
Seriously, has anyone who has one of those big fridges tried just removing the expensive water filter? What's the point of it? Lime scale happens where water evaporates, and that's not in a chiller or ice maker.

The filters they come with don't soften - they're just carbon filters. Chlorine/metals/particles. I want to by pass mine, use a "cheaper to run" external filter that does soften and use the water for my coffee machine (which will die expensively if I keep running it on hard water).

I've always mocked filtered water in the past (after all, our tap water is safe to drink) but the chilled, filtered, water from the fridge is a lot nicer than standard tap water. I go downstairs from the office rather than drink the water from our ensuite (and i put an unsoftened tap in there for the purpose).

Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary

Posted By: djh

Posted By: WillInAberdeenDJH,
I thought the general advice was not to drink softened water........

slight increase in sodium. Only advised to worry if you're specifically on a low sodium diet

I will soon be doing surgery on the hot and cold plumbing here to remove the combi boiler and install a heat pump and the likely hot water cylinder manufacturer says "Where the total hardness exceeds 125 ppm a high capacity water softener, or suitable water conditioner, should be installed in the incoming cold water supply to the cylinder". Most other cylinder manufacturers say something similar.

Since our water supply is 265 ppm CaCO3, I will therefore need some sort of something (or accept no warranty and a potential loss of efficiency). I was wondering if anyone had any experience with these TAC filters now?

You seem to be able to buy them for about £70 to £300 depending on flow rate spec and pre-filtration options (pre-filtration seems to be advisable in many cases to prolong the lifespan of the TAC media). You can of course also pay considerably more, but it's not clear what advantages (if any) these more expensive options offer.

Declaring an interest: we're Build4less, a building materials supplier, but this is general experience rather than a product pitch.

A couple of things worth knowing before you spend. TAC doesn't take the hardness out, it turns the calcium into tiny crystals that stay in suspension, so a test strip after the unit will still read 265 ppm. That matters if the cylinder warranty is ever argued over, so I'd email the manufacturer and get it in writing that a TAC unit counts as a "suitable water conditioner" for their coil. Some will only accept a proper ion exchange softener or a polyphosphate doser.

On the cheap versus expensive question, what you're mostly paying for is a vessel sized for your peak flow rate (too small and the water just rushes past the media), a sediment and chlorine pre filter so the media lasts, and independent test data. Look for DVGW W 512 certification; most of the £70 ones have none.

The good news is a heat pump cylinder sitting at around 50°C scales far less than a combi heat exchanger running hot, and keeping the legionella cycle weekly rather than daily helps too. If you do go for a salt softener instead, keep an unsoftened drinking tap in the kitchen.

Thanks for those comments.

University of Waterloo study (Ottawa) found little effect, so may be back to putting up with limescale...

https://dspacemainprd01.lib.uwaterloo.ca/server/api/core/bitstreams/0f785306-1d0a-4402-9648-812fdad01c24/content