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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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  1.  
    Hi Phil, try here:

    Posted By: WillInAberdeenGovt published a consultation on how much to do this with carrots (cheap charge) and how much with sticks (remotely switch off car chargers if the grid is about to collapse).

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/817107/electric-vehicle-smart-charging.pdf


    From page 12
    ”The current electricity system has been designed to meet a peak in
    demand between 17:00 and 20:30. For the rest of the day there can be large
    amounts of underused generation and network capacity. Generation during these
    off-peak periods is usually cleaner and cheaper. EVs can support the transition to
    a smarter energy system by, for example, charging overnight (during the off-peak)
    reducing the need for investment in infrastructure, but also provide power back to
    the grid. This makes it cheaper for people to charge and integrates EVs into the
    electricity system in an affordable way.'

    Edit: but yes indeed, electric transport and heating does imply that many more renewable GWh will be required. The 'smart' stuff is just about not requiring them all at the same time of day, it doesn't change the problem of how to generate them.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2021
     
    Interesting thread on MSE, linking to an article on ThisIsMoney that claims smart meters are rented to electricity suppliers at a cost of up to 14p a day per meter.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6255259/the-hidden-costs-of-a-free-smart-meter

    I'll be interested to learn what the truth is one day (2035? :devil: )
    • CommentAuthorCliff Pope
    • CommentTimeMar 31st 2021
     
    "The current electricity system has been designed to meet a peak in
    demand between 17:00 and 20:30. For the rest of the day there can be large
    amounts of underused generation and network capacity."

    "Has been designed" surely means it was designed based on the old pre-EV pre-electricity age?
    That was yesterday. Today everyone has very smart meters constantly searching for the cheapest period to use electricity. How can designers be so certain that the peak will still be from 5 to 8.30 pm in future?

    You can observe this effect simply by switching to an Economy 7 system. Our old peak usage period probably was from 5 till 8.30. But with economy 7 we put everything possible on a timer. Now 45% of our electricity is drawn from 3am. If we had electric cars and electric heating the percentage would be much higher.

    The pandemic has shown everyone the benefits of changed working hours. Pretty soon there won't be such a thing as the standard working day. It's classic le Chatelier's principle - apply pressure to a system in equilibrium and the point of equilibrium will change so as to offset the effects of the pressure.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2021
     
    If people cared and were informed yes, but the DONT!
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2021 edited
     
    There's an interesting system in France under their equivalent scheme. The off-peak hours vary depending on where you live, spreading loads on the grid. Most places seem to get contiguous hours during the night, but in some areas it is (or was) split between night and day.

    In theory, dynamic pricing offers should be coming in this year. I'm not sure what the latest is, but the 10-year (compulsory) smart meter roll-out is nearing completion; it's expected to be 95% complete by the end of this year after a Covid delay.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2021
     
    Posted By: Mike1There's an interesting system in France under their equivalent scheme. The off-peak hours vary depending on where you live, spreading loads on the grid.

    That's the same as here then.

    Most places seem to get contiguous hours during the night, but in some areas it is (or was) split between night and day.

    E7 guarantees 7 contiguous hours overnight. I believe that is simply a result of the technology involved originally. E10 does provide multiple intervals that can vary between suppliers and may involve two or three separate periods.

    Dynamic prices are already offered here by some suppliers. And smart meter rollout is thankfully voluntary.
  2.  
    Posted By: Cliff PopeThe pandemic has shown everyone the benefits of changed working hours. Pretty soon there won't be such a thing as the standard working day

    Absolutely! The old paradigm of 'off peak' being 'overnight' is ancient history now. The new 'off peak' is also during the late morning and the afternoon.

    Graph is from energystats, it shows electricity was as cheap at 2pm as at 2am this week.

    This means there would be spare capacity for people to charge their cars and heat their WFH kitchen tables in the afternoon as well as overnight. So long as the grid has capacity to cover the teatime peak, then there will be spare capacity during the off-peak for EVs and heatpumps, in the afternoon or overnight or whenever.

    Posted By: Cliff PopeIt's classic le Chatelier's principle - apply pressure to a system in equilibrium and the point of equilibrium will change so as to offset the effects of the pressure.

    Indeed! That's the whole purpose of a smart meter, to encourage people to move their demand to an off-peak period, *whenever that may be*. If in future, working habits or weather conditions mean the off-peak moves to Wednesday afternoons or Monday mornings, then smart tariffs will encourage people to move their demand accordingly, or to let their smart EV charger move it for them.

    Economy 7 can't keep up with moving the off-peak times every day, unfortunately.
      Ex0TxHFXMAA1kJs.png
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenEconomy 7 can't keep up with moving the off-peak times every day, unfortunately.

    Economy 7 can't even keep up with changing the times twice a year :bigsmile:

    It's always on GMT, all year round. I did hint/mention it was old technology.

    Suits us just fine for now :devil:
  3.  
    :bigsmile: I thought you were looking at heating your house at 3pm as required, on off-peak prices, rather than trying to heat it at 3am by an amount depending how sunny you forecast the next day to be?

    Certainly blows the idea of 'storage heaters' out of the water. Maybe makes small holes in the ideas of 'thermal mass' 'thermal store' and 'DHW cylinder'. Why store up heat for the whole of the next 24h, if the peak period is only 3h duration?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenI thought you were looking at heating your house at 3pm as required, on off-peak prices, rather than trying to heat it at 3am by an amount depending how sunny you forecast the next day to be?

    Yes I am - that's why I said 'for now' :bigsmile:

    Certainly blows the idea of 'storage heaters' out of the water. Maybe makes small holes in the ideas of 'thermal mass' 'thermal store' and 'DHW cylinder'. Why store up heat for the whole of the next 24h, if the peak period is only 3h duration?

    Not sure I entirely understand what you mean here about thermal mass et al? The thermal store is driven by the desire to capture PV output. I think thermal mass is generally desirable in conjunction with a lot of insulation - long time constants mean there's little point in worrying about optimising heating within the day. But I do agree that if the only expensive period is 3-4 hours it makes the prediction problem a lot more tractable.
  4.  
    Been offered a smart meter via our supplier, what's the concensus then?

    a) Go for it
    b) Waste of time
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2021
     
    Go for it.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeApr 28th 2021
     
  5.  
    8k SMETS1 were installed in March, vs 177k SMETS2, so you'd be rather unlikely to be offered one.

    Half the existing SMETS1 meters have been migrated to the SMETS2 system, the rest planned this year.

    a) Go for it
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2021
     
    I resisted a SMETS 1 waited for SMETS 2 and then only had it installed just recently as was installing solar PV. Whilst that is not up and running yet (a few days away) I have found the 1/2 hourly information very enlightening which I can graphically view next day (I am with Octopus other providers my not be set up to give same level of data) So yes worth doing. But ensure you get a SMETS 2.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2021
     
    Posted By: revorI have found the 1/2 hourly information very enlightening which I can graphically view next day

    I have an old-fashioned E7 meter and I have 10-second data I can look at for as long as I like. You don't need a smart meter to see usage data, just a logging system. No internet servers involved.
  6.  
    Some people have shelled out to buy logging systems like that, but it's rather a minority pursuit. (And some use internet servers for their data!)

    For the vast majority of people in UK, getting a free smartmeter is the first time they see how their usage varies over a day, and mentally link those peaks to the appliances they were using.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeApr 29th 2021
     
    Thinking of moving to a smart meter to take advantage of the 'outgoing agile' tariff:
    https://octopus.energy/outgoing/

    Pays a premium typically after 4pm and our PV is west facing...

    Anything I need to be aware of other than second generation smart meter?
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