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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2021
     
    Good day all

    My mum has a Trianco pellet boiler, bow six years old and out of all warranty, still runs ok , but consumes hours of tlc and a modification of some of the mechanicals to make servicing easier.
    At its recent clean , the pump that transfers between boiler and buffer is running continuously, it won’t swithcoff. Boiler control panel indicates it should be on or off as required but doesn’t affect the pump.
    This has happened before and the Trianco service engineer (they did the servicing during the warranttt period) showed me how to reset it via the control panel, this no longer has any effect.
    The company that fitted it, say they no longer have anyone qualified to work on it, i called one of the installers who said they’d ripped out nearly all of the ones they’d fitted.
    Only advice from trianco was to contact the electronics manufacturer in poland. A new control module is not cheap and without knowing it is the problem i’m not inclined to order one just as a hope for the best option.
    Has anyone on here have any insights into Estyma control systems?
    Whilst with the pump running it effectively turns the boiler into another radiator, heat loss is going to be minimal given thedesign maintains an ember burn 24/7 anyway, given modern pumps ( its a willo) are pretty reliable is its running continuously going to be any real issue for the foreseeable future?

    Any insights appreciated.

    Regards phil
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2021
     
    Phil - the pump on my wood pellet boiler (not a Trianco admittedly) will not come on until the boiler water temperature reaches the preselected limit, in my case 65C. There is a boiler temperature probe that sends the signal to the CPU. Is it possible that in your mum’s case the fault lies with the probe rather than the CPU?

    Do you know the controller model number? You may have already found this but this is a link to an Estyma controller manual:

    https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1267430/Estyma-Control-M-Rs-420.html?page=10#manual

    Do you know the controller model number?
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2021
     
    Evening Jeff

    Thanks for the link, it is the same controller and these instructions are far better than those provided with the boiler. However i’ve been through the settings. The controllerappears to be working as it should, there’s an icon on the screen which comes up when the pump is meant to be working. This icon comes and goes as it should in relation to the boiler and buffer temperatures.
    The terminology gets a bit confusing as the MRs420 is more of a user interface with the actual control module. The control module is in this link.

    https://www.estyma.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/606-en.pdf

    Apparently this has a pcb inside with relays one of which controls the pump, from what i’m told its possibly the problem. However i’m more a spanner man than an electronics engineer and have no idea how to test it. Trianco have put me in touch with an idependent service engineer who’s well versed in them. But could be a while until he’s in the right part of the country.

    Thanks for your input.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: Artiglio
    The terminology gets a bit confusing as the MRs420 is more of a user interface with the actual control module. The control module is in this link.

    https://www.estyma.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/606-en.pdf" rel="nofollow" >https://www.estyma.pl/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/606-en.pdf

    Apparently this has a pcb inside with relays one of which controls the pump, from what i’m told its possibly the problem.


    The module youve linked to looks to be an I/O module that collects Input signals and drives Output signals. Its likely to be connected to another module that monitors and controls the I/O module, maybe the MRS420 that you mentioned?

    If you look in section 4 of the manual linked to, it gives all the signals connected to the module in a number of different setups depending on the specifics of your heating system. In all the configurations the pumps are connected to output connections labelled AOx. The AO is almost certainly an analogue output suggesting your pump is variable speed. If thats the case theres not likely to be a relay controlling the analogue outputs. Any relays on the outputs will be on the DOx outputs which are likely to be Digital Outputs ie on or off.

    You may be able to get a PLC repair company to have a look at it as the electronics are likely to be very similar the industrial PLCs
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2021
     
    Philedge

    Thank you, the pump is only switched on or off by the boiler. (The pump itself is variable speed but this is set manually), the only variable speed device in the boiler is the fan that draws air through the combustion chamber. The pellet feed auger operates onnthe basis of runntime in a 10 second period.

    From the manual I’m pretty sure that the module in the boiler is Number 5. Can’t confirm this as i’m now back home.

    I’ve assumed relays are involved as when you use the test menu to operate the pump, ignitor, turbolator agitator, there’s an audible click. The fan seems to operate via another unit that i believe controls the speed. Once I get back up there i can confirm this.

    It’s issues like these thatbring home the immaturity of the biomass industry, i’d expect in this day and age that i could call out a service engineer who has a van full of spares and diagnostic equipment, rather than be given a link to a polish website that has few documents in english (and need to use google translate for other pages). No wonder it’s fallen out of favour. There’s just a year of rhi to go, so may well be a case of hoping the pump runs till the end , at which point reverting to lpg seems the most likely option. Seems an awful waste of a 23k system plus the cost of changing it back.But mums gettting on a bit and unreliable heating is just not an option. Choosing the boiler largely on the back of the Trianco (sheffield) name and supporting UK business seems to have been an error.

    Though i have been given contact details for an engineer that has experience of these boilers , hopefully he’ll be able to take a look before too long.

    Again , thank you. Your comments give me some things to look at when next there.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021
     
    Posted By: Artiglio

    Thank you, the pump is only switched on or off by the boiler.

    It’s issues like these thatbring home the immaturity of the biomass industry, i’d expect in this day and age that i could call out a service engineer who has a van full of spares and diagnostic equipment, rather than be given a link to a polish website that has few documents in english (and need to use google translate for other pages). No wonder it’s fallen out of favour.


    Although the pump seems to be connected to an analogue output just be concious that in your application the controller(MRS420?) may only be telling the analogue output to run at 0% or 100% so it appears to be an on/off setup. Its still an analogue channel and likely not to have a relay on that channel- it almost certainly wouldnt if it were an industrial PLC.

    Lots of manufacturers in lots of industries use bespoke control systems like Estymas where a complete control system is developed specific to a manufacturers/industries needs. Given the apparent flexibilty of Estymas system I think its likely youd find their Igneo system on pellet boilers other than just Triancos but those other users maybe in the EU/Poland so youll struggle to find UK support. I dont think its immaturity of the industry but more that it just keeps the upfront cost lower. Control systems are a fairly specialist area and if a manufacturer doesnt appreciate the downsides of using a bespoke system theyll end up in the situation they are now- at least spares are still available, where would they/you be if Estyma had gone bust!!
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021
     
    PhilEdge

    Thanks again , yes that makes sense to me ( analogue 0% /100%). The boiler is built by Ekogren.pl and then rebadged by trianco. Whilst yes i’m certainly better off with estyma still being in business, its hard to accept that the importer Trianco and the Installers OFL have effectively washed their hands of the product in 6 years and that the rhi scheme with all the hoops it has did’nt require suppliers to provide backup for at least the duration of the payment period.
    But on reflection i suppose its not much worse than having a BMW and faults corrected by replacing “modules” to try and correct a fault, though at least the garage and importer has the spares and a decent manual. I can’t even get a parts drawing from Trianco for the boiler.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021
     
    Its very easy to buy something that may be obsolete or become obsolete in a short period of time! No idea if and when your boiler became obsolete but if theres no support 6 years down the road it sounds like it may have been at or near end of life when you got it??

    If you search ebay for Trianco Pellet boiler theres a working 6 year old one with manuals, wiring disgrams, spares and what looks like an Igneo controller. You may be able to buy or get copies of the wiring diagrams from the seller or buy the whole thing for spares????
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021
     
    Sir you are a star.

    I’d stopped looking on ebay years back. Just spoken to him, its basically the same casing but different internals 10kw verus mums 40kw. However appears his was plumbed in the same way so fingers crossed the controller/module is the same . Plus its only 3 hours from mum and he can store it for a while. Going to send a few pics through of the electronics.
    Unfortunately he only has the same manuals and diagrams as we do. But healso has a local company thar services it so may also be handy.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021
     
    Brilliant. Id be fairly sure that controls will be the same across the range of boiler sizes and its mainly the mechanical bits that vary in size. Fingers crossed you get the bits you need.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021
     
    Yep, i’ve got the pics and the layout in the electronics bay is identical, just trying to make sure that the module is the correct one, the display certainly is, just the internal one.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021
     
    Artiglio/Phil - glad to read that you may have sorted your problem - fingers crossed for you! This is a depressingly familiar story for me. As you aware I have an Ekopower wood pellet boiler and the manufacturer went out of business within a few years of having mine installed. The installer "retired" at around the same time so I have no support whatsoever.

    The boiler goes along on the proverbial wing and a prayer and with regular cleaning/maintenance by me! There is a company in Denmark who has spares (apparently lots of Ekopower boilers were installed in Denmark) but for how long who knows. I'm told that the Domusa boiler which is made in Spain is a clone and has many parts in common but I don't need this hassle. I know another guy who has the same boiler as me and he intends to keep it whilst it is still working. He only lives about 30 miles away, so my plan is to sell mine to him for spares as soon as our RHI payments stop in the autumn. Then, sadly, it'll be back to heating oil for us!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021
     
    Posted By: ArtiglioBut on reflection i suppose its not much worse than having a BMW and faults corrected by replacing “modules” to try and correct a fault, though at least the garage and importer has the spares and a decent manual.

    Yes, but that's not down to maturity of companies or whatever. It's down to the law forcing them to keep parts available. There's a similar situation to your boiler with regard to mobile phones and other elctronics, which are a much bigger market but where there's also no law requiring spares availability or even existence.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021 edited
     
    DJH, the law is one thing but a company that wishes to do well needs to have decent customer service and back up. Its hardly an encouragement for people to move away from gas and oil to new technologies if you’re effectively gambling on the distributor / manufacturer to stay intersted in the market. In contrast mum has a worcester bosch boiler installed in 1997 heating a couple of outside rooms, i can ring worcester bosch and have an engineer visit with the know how and spares to fix it. Terminology aside this is what i would call a mature industry.
    Lpg and comfidence your boiler will last 20 years at reasonable cost or new technology at increased cost and no real idea on the lifespan. Throw in the lifetime environmental costs of the two systems and you really have to wonder is there any point. The fact that so many pellet boilers in domestic settings have been removed and reverted back to gas/oil makes a mockery of the whole industry and so called progress.
    Perhaps as part of rhi compliance and approval manufacturers/distributors need to be asked to ensure their products have full support, if not they don’t make the list.
    However , i’ll be picking the boiler found by philedge in a few weeks and fingers crossed all will be well, i’ve also been talking to a heating engineer who’s confident they can link said worcester bosch into the system as soon as the rhi finishes to give a back up, making future repairs/maintenance and eventual likely removal less frantic.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: ArtiglioLpg and comfidence your boiler will last 20 years at reasonable cost or new technology at increased cost and no real idea on the lifespan. Throw in the lifetime environmental costs of the two systems and you really have to wonder is there any point. The fact that so many pellet boilers in domestic settings have been removed and reverted back to gas/oil makes a mockery of the whole industry and so called progress.

    I agree with your assessment of the relative merits of LPG and pellet boilers. I also agree that there are some boiler manufacturers that go beyond what is legally required. I was just saying there's another factor at work in the car market.

    Perhaps as part of rhi compliance and approval manufacturers/distributors need to be asked to ensure their products have full support, if not they don’t make the list.

    That'd be good, wouldn't it :bigsmile: Somehow I find it difficult to imagine though :cry:
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