Green Building Forum - Danger of solar batteries indoors

Danger of solar batteries indoors

revor — Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:34:08 +0000

Came across this yesterday. Sobering thought.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/10/30/cause-of-30-kwh-battery-explosion-in-germany-remains-unclear/

Danger of solar batteries indoors

djh — Tue, 31 Oct 2023 12:12:49 +0000

Hmm, batteries bought from alibaba ... what could possibly go wrong?

But too dangerous for any investigation, so the cause cannot be established? Methinks the nanny state has gone too far.

Danger of solar batteries indoors

revor — Tue, 31 Oct 2023 13:48:30 +0000

Posted By: djhHmm, batteries bought from alibaba ... what could possibly go wrong?

Same thought. The comment that stuck in my mind was about having a inverter and battery combination that was tried and tested to work as one. 2 different makes of inverter and 10kw battery in a 19" housing suggest install is a cobbled together DIY job although it is reported the owner is an electronics technician of some experience. I have a 10kw battery in an outbuilding but the casing is thick metal and measures 460x460x640mm and weighs in at 100 kg. Even so it is a concern that these events can happen. In a risk analysis scenario the likelihood of an event may be low but the consequences are extremely high, as reported in the article.

Danger of solar batteries indoors

borpin — Tue, 31 Oct 2023 22:16:03 +0000

Posted By: revorit is reported the owner is an electronics technician of some experience.

I know an electrical engineer who designs grid connections - I wouldn't trust him to wire a plug!

Danger of solar batteries indoors

wookey — Thu, 21 Dec 2023 02:53:54 +0000

Pretty-much _all_ these batteries come from China, whoever sells you the box, and whoever puts it together is trusting that the cells have been properly manufactured, so I'm not sure blaming Alibaba is fair.

Exploding batteries (that render the building in need of demolition) are obviously very bad although I've never heard of such a thing before, and wonder by what mechanism an LFP pack can do this. They are very hard to set fire to. I wonder if a BMS failure of some sort could cause offgassing somehow.

It's not clear whether the Basen BR-48200B https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/BR-48200B-48V-51-2V-200AH_1600489951875.html or the MY-381 (can't find any sign of this - I wonder if that's the right ID) blew up.

I do wonder if there was a gas supply to the building - this is exactly what methane-leak explosions look like. I.e. maybe it wasn't _actually_ the batteries?

Here's someone else suspecting offgasing from his LFPs: https://diysolarforum.com/threads/safety-bad-reaction-to-off-gassing-charging-lifepo4-battery.19010/

Danger of solar batteries indoors

djh — Thu, 21 Dec 2023 12:12:05 +0000

I don't blame alibaba, but I don't trust them either. They don't apparently take any responsibility for the products they sell (and one could argue that that is not unreasonable) but that means the buyer is left to assess the competence of a manufacturer in China by themselves, which is definitely unreasonable.

There have been several other reports of ebike battery fires now, so whatever the cause of the German explosion, there is clearly a problem.

If I'm buying something potentially dangerous then I'd like to do it from a source that I know is operating under US/EU/UK law and that has staff in the UK that could be sent to jail.

Danger of solar batteries indoors

wookey — Sun, 24 Dec 2023 02:15:32 +0000

Alibaba is just a platform, like ebay or Amazon. In the way of these platforms they are mostly just an intermediary, and it's all 'buyer beware'. They do make some effort to keep actual scammers off and there are reputation systems to help users. Everything I've bought there over the years has turned up and been as described, but yeah if something was duff it could easily be hard work getting any redress. Letting someone else take the risk of importing is adviseable if you can't afford to lose the money.

There have been several other reports of ebike battery fires now, so whatever the cause of the German explosion, there is clearly a problem.

We've known that lithium-ion batteries can catch fire if damaged or not kept within the correct operating parameters for 20 years now - that's just the nature of the beast. LCO were by far the worst for this but are now rarely used. LFP are at least a factor of 20 less likely to burn and dramatically less exothermic when they do.

There have been plenty of cars by the side of the road that caught fire. Does that mean that there is 'clearly a problem', or just that petrol (and quite a lot of the rest of a car) is inflammable, and various sorts of failure can cause fires?

Danger of solar batteries indoors

djh — Sun, 24 Dec 2023 12:29:55 +0000

I wasn't explicit enough, apparently. There have been people killed by ebike batteries burning whilst the people slept. So there is clearly a problem.

Danger of solar batteries indoors

WillInAberdeen — Thu, 04 Jan 2024 13:24:46 +0000

Apparently, ~200 people have been killed or injured in gas explosions in the UK in the last 5 years, almost one each week. That's more than I expected, but maybe I had just got habituated to this casualty rate, gas explosions don't generate much news coverage and we've kind of got used to gas leaks happening, unlike battery fires which are a new thing.

Would be interested if there are any comparable figures on the rates of gas explosions vs battery fires, when considering the number of rechargeable batteries in households vs the number of gas appliances.

I was prompted to look at this by the release (immediately before Xmas) of a safety report on burning hydrogen in home gas boilers. The gas company has been reluctant to release it until forced by a FOI. Worth a look as the explosion testing pictures are rather eye catching, it needs more protection measures than natural gas does.

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/policy/long-suppressed-hydrogen-explosion-risk-report-and-video-released-after-ruling-from-uk-commissioner/2-1-1575932

Danger of solar batteries indoors

Peter_in_Hungary — Thu, 04 Jan 2024 15:48:33 +0000

Off topic but a 'sound bite' from the link above

"The UK government has recommended fitting always-open air vents above hydrogen appliances, to ensure that any leaking hydrogen escapes into the atmosphere"

So a H2 combi as a plug and play in the kitchen (replacing a gas combi) will do wonders for the air tightness (a bit like the required hole in the wall for a wood burning stove) - or is the next thing to put them in a sealed box vented to the outside?

Danger of solar batteries indoors

djh — Thu, 04 Jan 2024 16:02:40 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeenApparently, ~200 people have been killed or injured in gas explosions in the UK in the last 5 years, almost one each week. That's more than I expected, but maybe I had just got habituated to this casualty rate

Indeed and "In reported road collisions in Great Britain in 2022 there were an estimated: 1,695 fatalities" < https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-provisional-results-2022/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-provisional-results-2022 >

From that article, I liked "The UK government has recommended fitting always-open air vents above hydrogen appliances, to ensure that any leaking hydrogen escapes into the atmosphere" Does wonders for your airtightness! But then so does almost any combustion-powered device.

Danger of solar batteries indoors

WillInAberdeen — Fri, 05 Jan 2024 10:18:37 +0000

My understanding is that, because hydrogen is much lighter than air, any leaks tend to collect in pockets near the ceiling at high concentration rather than mix through the room and be diluted like natural gas does.

During earlier rounds of testing, installation of a 4" always-open vent holes, near to ceiling level above the cooker and boiler, was the baseline safety measure required by the HSE. It is 'fail-safe and idiot-proof' - until someone blocks up the vent hole!

The networks know that will be pretty draughty and unpopular, so for the proposed 'hydrogen village' tests they were talking about seeking approval from the HSE to not drill the vent holes, but instead to fit ceiling mounted detectors, similar to the carbon monoxide detectors you get for natural gas appliances (hydrogen cannot cause carbon monoxide which is a safety benefit).

I didn't hear whether such detectors have actually been invented yet, and whether they would cut off the hydrogen supply or just beep, or what you're supposed to do if one goes off (false alarm?) or what happens if nobody's home, who changes the batteries, etc etc - TBF the point of the trial is to uncover these kinds of issues and work out solutions. I didn't hear whether the HSE have agreed to this, or not.

There are other issues such as - the piping in each home needs testing or replacement because tiny hydrogen hydrogen molecules are more leaky than methane; extra shutoff valves will be fitted; new smartmeter; and you need 3x as much volume of hydrogen to supply the same amount of energy so you might need bigger pipes. So not really plug-and-play.

Two out of the three 'hydrogen village' trials have been cancelled now, those would have tried converting the existing pipes to hydrogen, so every householder in the area has to agree (they didn't) or else be cut off. The third village trial is currently going ahead in Fife, they are laying separate new hydrogen pipes to each of the participating homes.

TBH the government seems to be going off the idea of hydrogen boilers, seems hydrogen is very expensive to buy (big heating bills) and there is more demand from the aviation/shipping/chemicals/steel/glass etc industries who need the hydrogen more.

Danger of solar batteries indoors

Mike1 — Fri, 05 Jan 2024 17:38:55 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeenseems hydrogen is very expensive to buy (big heating bills) and there is more demand from the aviation

There is also doubt as to whether the gas network could actually deliver, at least affordably.

Hydrogen has an energy density of 120 to 142 MJ/kg, compared to methane at 50 to 55 MJ/kg. However hydrogen molecules are 8 times lighter at the same pressure, albeit less viscous. So, to replace methane, the pipe pressure and flow rate has to be significantly increased, requiring new compressors that work harder and use more energy. And, as hydrogen molecules are physically smaller and able to escape though smaller gaps, leakage is literally an explosive issue, requiring the replacement of appliances and network equipment. There would also need to be investment in gas storage to replace the (current) ability that the pipe network has to store gas. All of which seems likely to be rather expensive. And that's before the cost of producing the hydrogen.

This seems like wishfull thinking by the gas industry at best, or, more cynically, a misleading diversion aimed at prolonging the use of natural gas and delaying electrification.

Danger of solar batteries indoors

revor — Tue, 06 Feb 2024 08:39:22 +0000

Further report here. Australia usually ahead of the curve when comes to solar. The photos show a Solax system which is a popular brand over here.

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/lg-battery-recall-after-house-destroyed-and-13-properties-damaged-switch-off-immediately-053335640.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJUqD7Dn8y8vpcWX1B2kQYu-WmBXboI4HatIrYGdT12f1-guhqZLDbU0MqyRXWIQwyg6cpuAwdhp7ElU3Ypql9UrL_in5zuL_dYGA-lfr6UdJCilVRan0u4NB4s5XWHvrTI7xFckDW7bKKeQYdSfD5Gk9QFEhS1jihmHA54aHmNG

Danger of solar batteries indoors

Artiglio — Wed, 07 Feb 2024 09:18:21 +0000

Are there any figures for fires caused by charging scooters, ebikes, phones , laptops and tablets etc?

Danger of solar batteries indoors

Mike1 — Wed, 07 Feb 2024 12:58:13 +0000

Posted By: ArtiglioAre there any figures for fires caused by charging scooters, ebikes, phones , laptops and tablets etc?

A great qestion, so I thought I'd see if I could find anything.

The best source seems to be Government fire statistics - https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/fire-statistics-data-tables#cause-of-fire

Looking at domestic fires caused by 'faulty appliances and leads' (which presumably includes charging), there were 3,486 in year ending March 2023.

That number has been on a fairly continuous downward trend since year ending March 2011, when there 5060, and on a somewhat erratic downward trend as the proportion of all accidental domestic fires, to 14.47%. So no great cause for alarm, it seems.

Danger of solar batteries indoors

cjard — Sat, 10 Feb 2024 06:41:02 +0000

It's OK, Toyota have it solved by splitting water..

Danger of solar batteries indoors

revor — Sat, 10 Feb 2024 13:25:18 +0000

University bans Li battery charging.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-68208356