Are we sure we want to poke this fire ...........again

Aside: I see the Grauniad now has a cookie policy that I think is illegal. They can't offer a choice of cookies depending on a subscription AFAIK. Anyway, I haven't read that. But the other link is interesting.

It does seem to say that wood-burners are often a lifestyle choice and implies that choice is based on a mistaken understanding of the world. So lets hope the view gains some traction, and leads to some people reviewing their lifestyle choices.

It's marginally interesting to note that the data isn't complete; the available data set is only those houses where the owners have agreed to make the EPC public (by default).

For most a wood burner will be a life style choice, although sitting in a room with an air wash doored wood stove of a winters evening is IMO so much nicer than sitting in the same room with a hot radiator !!!

For my part the CH is done with a wood gasifying boiler supplied from my own forest which is overseen by the forestry commission. The wood is cut using a petrol chain saw 'cos you can't use an electric saw 500m + from the nearest plug and a battery one would not be up to the task. Wood is removed from the forest with a tractor on forest tracks and I am only allowed to go into the forest in the winter in suitable ground conditions.

I am outside a rural village with the nearest neighbour 500m away and the village about 2km distant. Mains gas is not an option and bottled gas and oil is way too expensive.

As was said at one time both wood burning and diesel engines were seen as 'less bad', now that view has changed but I have both, a diesel Land Rover 30 years old and the CH boiler along with a masonry stove for the spring/autumn. The Land Rover does what my EV won't - heavy dirty work, about 3000 km/ year.

For the future when the boiler gives up (or I do) then it's a heat pump run on PV. If the Land Rover gave up then I would probably have to get an equivalent - until then I will keep both burning.

I don't see the point of throwing out machines that are serviceable and working as designed.

Of course if you want to discuss diesel SUVs doing the urban school run or wood burning stoves in chic Battersea flats then that's a different matter.

I recall a topic some time back " Smoke Nuisance is wood wood? " started by Mikeee5 that showed up the appalling lack of smoke control and enforcement in urban environments - this needs sorting !!

Posted By: fostertomam I right you are actually in Hungary, overseen by that 'forestry commission'?

Yes, "Peter_in_Hungary" is actually in Hungary
My restrictions are a bit more than most as some of our forest has liverwort (protected plant here) growing on the forest floor so our working time ends 1 month earlier than most (end of Feb.). And we have to put in an annual plan for prior approval which includes inspection.

Posted By: fostertom

a battery one would not be up to the task

AFAIK they really are, nowadays - at a price.

3 hours work with logs up to 30cm dia is a lot of battery !!

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary</cite>3 hours work with logs up to 30cm dia is a lot of battery !!</blockquote>Spare batteries? AFAIK e.g. National Trust/Stihl are well on the way to switching to battery tools incl chainsaws.
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/who-we-are/our-partners/gardening-sustainably-with-stihl

TBF the fuel consumed by a chainsaw is a trivial amount, compared to driving there in a pickup truck.

The biggest source of particle pollution is NOx, which reacts in sunlight to make fine particles. The biggest source of NOx emissions in London is now from gas boilers (following reductions from buses and cars). The solution is to get rid of gas boilers and cookersand replace with heat pumps and induction stoves.

But this chain involves too much atmospheric chemistry and not enough class envy to be explained in the G these days :-(.

So wood stoves get lots of criticism because they are visually smoky and tend to be in affluent areas in cities.

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/news/gas-boilers-main-contributor-to-nox-in-central-london/

Posted By: WillInAberdeenThe biggest source of particle pollution is NOx, which reacts in sunlight to make fine particles. The biggest source of NOx emissions in London is now from gas boilers (following reductions from buses and cars). The solution is to get rid of gas boilers and cookersand replace with heat pumps and induction stoves.

But this chain involves too much atmospheric chemistry and not enough class envy to be explained in the G these days :-(.

So wood stoves get lots of criticism because they are visually smoky and tend to be in affluent areas in cities.

TBF there isn't a conflict there. London is a large city. The original article Tom quoted said that the main problem with wood burners is outside large cities. So finding the main problem in London is due to gas boilers is not a contradiction, especially given that the conclusion is reached due to the ULEZ zone that doesn't exist in many other places.

I designed our passivhaus self-build here in rural Normandy back in 2010 and included a small (2-3kw) wood burning stove. No central heating so just electric heaters as back-up. The wood comes from the local guys who harvest the hedgerows, etc. Last delivery of 5 stere - around 5 cu m - cost under 300€ and will normally last us 3 years. I do have to cut the wood to 25cm long to fit in the stove using mainly my chop saw or the petrol chain saw for the larger lumps! Being a rural area virtually our neighbours depend on burning wood.

I am looking after my wife who has dementia and will have an A/C unit fitted in the next few weeks to heat or cool the two main room as she has started to play with the stove, adding wood when not required or placing it dangerously, so I’ll stop using it and place a light in there with red paper to fool her!! I’ll also fit PV panels to power the A/C or the electric car otherwise! If I did another self-build with the knowledge we now have on harmful emissions I’d go for electric heating units and benefit from the low prices we enjoy!!

fostertom said "Gor blimey" in response to https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/apr/24/wood-burning-stoves-new-build-homes-england

Seems an appropriate reaction! Does anybody know of any petition or whatever or is it just a case of writing to our MPs?

Posted By: WillInAberdeenThat 'news' article is about a proposal published in the English FHS consultation in December 2023... which is still the newest news they have on the subject

It's about a letter published by the SIA, and presumably a copy of which was sent to them (or otherwise passed) recently.

Incidentally:

Why would the SIA put out a press release saying the govt wrote to them a month ago to refer them to a consultation it ran in 2023, as though this is some kind of official govt announcement?

Why would the G publish the press release, as though it were a news article, but without getting confirmation or a quote from anyone in govt?

Spin beats substance, these days...

And also also incidentally:

Coal/gas/oil/LPG and resistance electric would similarly not meet the 2023 consultation for the main heating system. But they are ok as secondary heat sources, it gives the example of "decorative" heaters.

As those decorative heat sources consume more Primary Energy than the notional ASHP, they will be added to the building Primary Energy Rate. So as compensation the designer will need to add more insulation or PV, to get back down within the spec of the notional building.

The press release and newspaper article don't seem to mention this...

I'll stop adding incidentallys now.

Nope, there was nothing in the 2023 consultation about wood no longer being allowed for decorative heating, in fact the consultation laid out the arithmetic for accounting its Primary Energy contribution when burning it that way.

Wood has never been banned, the govt reminds the SIA of this, the SIA presents this as a govt u-turn, the G prints it as a sensation.

Thanks Will, and thank you Guardian in its mission to keep us eco-building designers on our toes!

So this was the 2023 consultation on the proposed Future Homes Standard, then intended for 2025 introduction, and this maybe the first indication of what govt is deciding to impliment?

Presumably the calcs for extra insulation etc, to compensate for emissions from such means of 'secondary' heating, will be integrated into the proposed Home Energy Model replacement for glitchy SAP, which will form part of FHS. Let's hope HEM will be at last as realistic and reliable as the PH spreadsheet is, and unlike SAP will have some good excuse for existing as a parallel/duplication of PH.

Anyone know how FHS will relate to Building Regs? Hopefully integrated into a new update of BRegs?

If so, that HEM will also be more strongly mandated than SAP is, for conversion/extension as well as newbuild, while at the same time being much more easily and inexpensively accessible than SAP, for which a 'qualified' consultant has to be paid.

Tom, FHS is the next update of Building Regs AD L, the building regs about heating.

HEM is the next major update of SAP. (Previously named "SAP version 11"). Might be released in usable format in 2027 or 28, so that's when FHS can happen.

Building regs will continue to use HEM/SAP to calculate everything.

Building regs will continue to set out a "notional building" spec. You can still build to that spec without doing much calc, or you can choose to tweak the spec up here and down there and do HEM calcs to show your design is as good as the "notional" spec.

The notional spec has reasonable insulation U=0.11 to 0.18 and ASHP. The consultation asked whether it should also have PV MHRV WWHR AT etc.



Building Regs today are about saving carbon, but that'll be less important in FHS because the notional spec will be ASHP which is low carbon anyway. The main metric will become Primary Energy. The Scottish regs have dropped carbon limits altogether.

ASHPs and onsite solar use less Primary Energy than gas/oil/coal/wood, which use less Primary Energy than grid electric. So you're nudged towards ASHP heating, the other options are not explicitly banned, but will find it very difficult to match the Primary Energy target. Will still be ok as secondary heat sources, if other Primary Energy savings can be found elsewhere in the design.

Going off topic here and frustrated that I can't edit posts to add thoughts, so sorry for multiple posts!