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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorChrisGT
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2025
     
    Hi glad to see this site is still going! Planning to retrofit a 20 yr old house with external insulation, triple glazing and a heat pump. I had an airtightness test done which came back as around 9 ach which seems to suggest I need to do some serious airtightness work to make this all worthwhile. Its brick and block with a 70mm cavity filled with glassfibre and dot and dab plasterboard. Upstairs the two bedrooms have dormer windows with sloping ceilings from 170 cm above the floor. I was thinking of an airtightness membrane on the outside of the brick joined to the foundation which crosses the wallplate and continues up the inside of the rafters to make a warm roof. I was thinking of externally insulating with a larsen truss with 40mm woodfibre boards externally and blown in loose woodfibre (gutex) with XPS EWI below the dpc down to the foundations. I realise this isnt perfect as theres a leakage path under the slab between the foundation and blocks below ground level but was hoping I could still get a pretty good airtighness result.Would welcome any thoughts on this!
  1.  
    Would you not get rid of the dot 'n' dab first? Either that or stitch-drill and foam fill at all perimeters of all boards. A hell of a job and the result unseen and therefore not open to 'quality control'. Then either you can do an a/t layer of (say lime) plaster or use something like an intelligent membrane and batten and board over. I wouldn't do the latter. Obviously whatever you do will involve taping in all the joist ends, and using the relevant primer where applicable.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 9th 2025
     
    What are your target u-values, airtightness - I love 3g good decision.
    • CommentAuthorChrisGT
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2025
     
    Hi Nick, good to hear from you! Problem is its quite nice inside, nice kitchen and finish. Stripped back the last house to get 0.3 ach, just wondered if there was an easier way! I know Beattie pasive have done this external airtightness before to get fairly good airttightness results. Maybe your right we just need to bite the bullet! Tony, I would like to get down towards 1 ach and U-vales of 0.15 or lower. Not ripping floor up which i think has 70 mm of EPS possibly.
  2.  
    Perhaps an easier way to get external air tightness would be to do a conventional EWI with EPS and foam between the slabs of EPS either as a post EPS application or perhaps easier foam between the slabs as they are applied to the wall (squirt foam on the 2 sides to be mated then press the next slab in position). After the EPS is on the wall then the normal layer of adhesive and glass mesh then thin film render over.

    With your proposal above you don't say how you would prevent water getting into the wood fibre board and blown in wood fibre. Any moisture that did get in would degrade the insulation and probably have difficulty in drying out.

    For the down to the foundations insulation I would use EPS rather than XPS. XPS is closed cell but will eventually get water absorption and will not dry out. EPS on the other hand will release any water that did get absorbed. There is at least one study that showed (after a 15 year period if I remember) that EPS out performed XPS in below ground use.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 11th 2025 edited
     
    Interesting to see you suggest edge-jointed EWI as having significant airtightness, PiH - I think so but didn't dare say!

    One thing - applying foam before offering up would collapse any so-far expansion and kill any further expansion. The aim is full-fill. (It's OK in the case of squirty adhesive-grade, for fixing the slabs onto the background, as that doesn't have to be fully continuous). Better to inject the joints with a long thin nozzle, right to the back, and let it expand outward.

    Right about EPS below ground rather than closed-cell plastic insulation.
  3.  
    If injecting the foam after I would use thin spacers between the EPS slabs to make injecting easier and give the foam somewhere to expand into.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2025 edited
     
    I'd a thought that where there's no gap (wholy or in places) then it doesn't need foam to penetrate there. However, the expansion, if not killed by movement/friction, is pretty powerful!
  4.  
    Adjacent EPS panels even if touching won't be air tight.If a slight gap is created (say the width of the diameter of the foam gun) then it will be easy to inject the foam which can then expand as needed.
    • CommentAuthorLF
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2025 edited
     
    I have a 20 odd year old extension so similar dot and dab issues. Is there a gap from loft to let cold air fall down the plasterboard. Foam this.
    I have drilled and foamed in the rooms as we decorate and sorted the plasterboard.
    Thermal camera to check for worst cold bridging and leaks.

    Will inA reckons more co2 released in retrofit of cavity wall than CO2 saved?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2025
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryAdjacent EPS panels even if touching won't be air tight
    True
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryIf a slight gap is created (say the width of the diameter of the foam gun) then it will be easy to inject the foam which can then expand as needed
    Prob gd idea
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2025 edited
     
    Posted By: LFWill inA reckons more co2 released in retrofit of cavity wall than CO2 saved?
    Didn't he say EWI, not CWI?
    • CommentAuthorLF
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2025
     
    Yes, Tom, Not worth EWI when you have CWI.
  5.  
    Posted By: LFYes, Tom, Not worth EWI when you have CWI.

    Except ChrisGT is wanting to EWI as a way of resolving 9ach without destroying the inside of his house so perhaps different calculations apply.
    • CommentAuthorLF
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2025
     
    PinH - Good point - 9 ACH! eek
    - and especially as he is looking at a warm roof and suffered a internal retrofit.
    • CommentAuthorChrisGT
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2025 edited
     
    Hi Peter, Lime render on the woodfibre external board to prevent water ingress, probably baumit with a silicon top coat. I didn't realise that EPS was considered better thank XPS under ground. I wouldn't have thought EPS would be very airtight though? Would an intello membrane under the ewi not be better?
  6.  
    According to greenbuildingadvisor.com Eps is an effective air barrier if it is at least 5.5" thick but the adhesive + mesh coat followed by the thin film render all add to the mix to obtain air tightness.
    Putting a membrane under the EPS would obviously solve any issues if the EPS is thinner but then fixing the EPS needs thought
    • CommentAuthorChrisGT
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2025
     
    Interesting. Iworry about what happens to all that EPS stuck to render at end of life but I can see the cost advantages of it over wood fibre or even blown in wood fibre. My idea was to screw the larsen trusses to the wall through the mebrane with naidec tape that seals round the screw (is that right? ) and then 40mm woodfibre boards with blown in loosefill to the cavity created. I suppose a parge coat on the brickwork before ewi would be another option.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2025 edited
     
    A hellava lot easier to glue EPS blocks direct to the masonry and render it. Or woodfibre boards instead above ground-splashback level.

    Second-guessing whether or how EPS may be harmlessly salvaged and in some way recycled or sequestered in 60yrs time is fruitless.
  7.  
    Hi Chris, welcome!

    Others have covered most of the major points (would be good to see some section details if you can attach images), but I've not seen much discussion on the roof to ceiling/wall junction. Internally this is often a point where there's a gap in the insulation line at the level where the rafters/trusses sit onto the cavity wall and the ceiling-level insulation doesn't reach out to the perimeter.

    With any luck your EWI retrofit approach will make some of this moot, but you still don't want an uncontrolled airpath even inside the thermal line if you can avoid it, so worth figuring out if there is an issue here.

    Since you are EWI-ing you may need to consider extending your rafters. This is sometimes called a 'bobtail', and you need to consider the impact on high-level windows that open out (see the section on 'sprockets') here:

    https://cms.trustmark.org.uk/media/yo2eytf3/the-iaa-bpg-extending-the-roof-line-to-accomodate-ewi-v1-the-iaa-dec.pdf?sfvrsn=13149407_2
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2025 edited
     
    Posted By: Doubting_ThomasSince you are EWI-ing you may need to consider extending your rafters. This is sometimes called a 'bobtail', and you need to consider the impact on high-level windows that open out (see the section on 'sprockets')
    I think you're confused about what a bobtail is. A bobtail truss is where the truss is cut back because of an indent in the shape of the building, or the whole truss is raised up (made thicker vertically) to make more room for insulation. Sprockets is a better term for the topic under discussion.
  8.  
    Posted By: djhI think you're confused about what a bobtail is. A bobtail truss is where the truss is cut back because of an indent in the shape of the building, or the whole truss is raised up (made thicker vertically) to make more room for insulation.


    Sorry, @djh you are totally right. I was thinking about them in relation to the insulation pinch point at roof and wall. Bobtail truss can allow you to get more depth for horizontal insulation.

    I think the EWI overhang extenders are literally just called 'rafter extensions', although I'd be surprised if there isn't an industry nickname known only to roofers..!
      technical-image-of-standard-and-bobtail-truss.jpg
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2025 edited
     
    All solved if there's reason to re-fix or replace the slates/tiles while the scaffolding's up - board over the rafter tops, carry the EWI up and over the boarding and over the ridge (as well as insulating between the rafters), leaves the attic cosy, draught-free, useable, completely seamless insulation at the eave. Cut the existing rafters off flush at the eave, lay probably longer 'rafter extensions' embedded in the over-roof EWI (handsome exposed sawn untreated doug fir in the pic). The 'extensions' are thus higher up than any previous rafter projections, so will clear any windows - in fact on elevation the gutter line is still approx same as before, despite larger overhang, just the ridge is higher on elevation.
      P1010283med.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2025 edited
     
    Posted By: Doubting_ThomasI think the EWI overhang extenders are literally just called 'rafter extensions', although I'd be surprised if there isn't an industry nickname known only to roofers..!
    Yes. Up until today I would have called them 'sprockets' rather than 'rafter extensions' because we have a lot and that's what my architect called them. But mine don't lift the line of the roof; they just extend it in the current direction, to support the overhanging eaves and gable ends. And I now think that sprockets have lifting the roof line as an essential purpose. But rafter extension doesn't feel like a good name either since we don't have any rafters!

    Because we have a curved roof, we just have straight timbers running across the top of some large curved glulam beams, and then a ply top. The rafter extensions just run around the edge to support the overhanging ply (and up to one person if I remember the SE's calculations).
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 16th 2025 edited
     
    Stub rafters? Eave rafters? And then there's the verge!
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