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Housing - Renovation: Spacetherm/Spaceloft/Aerogel & bonding plaster on solid walls

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    • CommentAuthorJanetta
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2009
     
    Hi,

    Some time ago Saint (May 6th 2008, Housing-Renovation: Internal insulation on solid walls) mentioned that some Italian contractors have completed projects on uneven and curved walls using a 10mm Aerogel fleece by applying bonding plaster to the wall and whilst still wet pushing Aerogel fleece into it. Leaving that until the next day to go off they then finish traditionally with more bonding plaster and then a skim coat. This allowed them to follow the wall contours exactly and thinly.

    I have some 9mm spacetherm on order. I'm going to try some experiments using this method in a North facing utility room, then a North facing landing - before trying in a room with curved walls/ornate picture rail/cornice. The house has solid granite walls, the original ?lime plaster and original render. We can not add external insulation because the building is listed.

    Has anyone tried this method at all? Did you also mechanically fix the spacetherm? Did the plaster adhere well? Was standard Gypsum used or has anyone tried 'Lightweight Gypsum', lime or clay plasters? I would appreciate any comments/tips you have before we 'have a go'!

    Many Thanks,

    Janetta:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorskywalker
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2009
     
    Do you mean this case study (posted by Saint elsewhere):

    http://www.aerogel.com/markets/Case_Study_House_Renovation_web.pdf

    You may be better off talking to Proctors as they will probably be interested in what you are doing and should be able to advise.

    S.
    • CommentAuthorJanetta
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2009
     
    Hi,

    Thanks for your reply.

    I don't _think_ that it is the same case study. I had seen the one you mention - and this could be the same method - but there is not enough detail. I tried contacting Aspens a number of times for more details - via the web 'form' but not had a reply. Perhaps the 'form' isn't working properly!

    Proctors have been really helpful and have answered my questions as much as possible. A lady who replied to my enquiry had heard about the work in Italy (perhaps via greenbuilding forum), but said that Proctors haven't done any testing or studies using it in this way and have thus no knowledge of compliance to fire regs, durability etc. She didn't doubt that it would work - but they could not provide details or specification as they have not been involved in this type of application. Fair enough I guess!

    Janetta
    • CommentAuthorskywalker
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2009
     
    You need a direct line to Aspen I guess.

    A great shame, we need lots more UK examples of aerogel use and yours sounds perfect.

    Sorry I couldn't help more.

    S.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2009
     
    10mm Aerogel? at 0.013W/mK it's the best, but not so fantastically better than e.g, Cellotex at 0.20/0.22. Would anyone think that 15/17mm of Cellotex is worth bothering with? People seem to think that Aeorgel is some wonder-wallpaper!
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2009
     
    Hi Janetta,

    Ask Proctors to put you in touch directly with Aspen in Europe, headquartered in Germany. The experience in this type of application has been gained in mainland Europe. Recently a large 600 year old Swiss mill was renovated using this type of construction internally and externally. The external render was a lime based cement approx 30mm thick I believe on 3 or 4 layers of Aerogel that were applied using standard EIFS type reinforcement and fixings. Internally a lime based plaster with reinforcement
    The overriding reasons for using the Aerogel fleece was that firstly it is thin, secondly it is flexible thus better than rigid boards on an old somewhat curvy and lumpy property and it is "breathable" i.e. vapour permeable
    • CommentAuthorJanetta
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2009
     
    Thanks Skywalker, Fostertom and Saint!

    Fostertom, yes - I agree one layer is poor - but at least it will bring the U-value, in those places we can only use one layer, from about 3 to about 0.9 for the present. Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick! The electric company wanted £275 per month when we moved in, based upon the previous owner’s use of electric convector heaters, and there are only 3 bedrooms plus an attic room! We've already added decent insulation to the roof and insulated the ground floors - but the walls are tricky. In one room there is ornate plaster work (surprising for an old Jersey farmhouse) - our only option is something _really_ thin unless we choose to remove all the plasterwork (no way!). In another room, there are curved walls - perhaps we could add more here in the same way later or use the 'wallpaper' Proctors are bringing out soon (but may need anaglypta over the wallpaper). In a rear room the walls are really lumpy/bumpy. Although I said external insulation is not an option (the building is on the Jersey historic building register), in the future we do hope to get planning permission to add insulation to the 'rough rendered' rear North wall and side East wall. The original front, South, faces the road and would be difficult to insulate without altering the character. The west adjoins another building.

    Saint, good idea – I’ll contact Proctors and ask to be put in contact with Aspen Europe. Thanks also for the info about the Swiss mill. Really useful stuff. I’d love it if our (long-term) builder would use lime plaster – but he’s already scratching his head at what we’re asking him to try. As somebody used to gypsum, lime may be the final straw! We’ve thought long and hard and really want a breathable solution to avoid the creation of a damp problem (as per info sheet 4 and tech pamphlet 10, The Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings). Do you think gypsum would be OK or should we stick out for lime? At the moment we plan to put a log-burner in the main room and, once air tight, a MVHR system with extract air HP (e.g. Genvex Combi) which should keep the humidty at sensible levels.

    Thanks again

    Janetta
    • CommentAuthorJanetta
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2009
     
    .. edit..
    should have said ".....and tech pamphlet 8 ...." (not 10)
    Janetta
    • CommentAuthormel_man
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2009
     
    Very interesting thread. I am looking at using Spacetherm bonded to board, so diverging a bit... I'm just a DIYer and am trying to convince my wife that we should insulate the walls of our edwardian house (one at a time as we decorate). Currently ripping out kithen. Could anyone help me with some convincing words. She says...

    Its only one room its not worth it...
    Kitchen has approx 30msq external wall and 9smq is doubleglazed window or door, so its not worth it...
    Its spongey, is it Ok to hang heavy kitchen cabinets on it.. it's not worth it...

    I know its expensive, but I don't want to have to re form window/door areas and replace the original coving. I'm looking at 15mm (10+5 new layer thicknesses) + 10 Fermicell, giving 25mm just marginly thicker than existing plaster that will be removed.

    Can anyone tell me how to calculate U value for walls, without getting a thermal engineer in, a number might convince the wife.

    As for expected payback time I have no idea..

    Dazed and confused:confused:
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2009
     
    Mel_man,

    Just looking at the increased insulation level on the wall alone. Assuming its a solid wall the accepted U value is taken as 2.1W/m2K Just by adding 10mm Fermacell and 15mm of Aerogel you will reduce that U value to 0.63 W/m2K i.e an improvement of 70%.
    As you've said there is a significant glazed area that remains unchanged so you need to assess the impact of having that wall area insulated against the total lesser insulated remainder and check the aggregated improvement
    • CommentAuthoralant
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2009
     
    Hi Janetta,
    I am considering this for internal insulation for my Granite cottage but am also unsure about how to attach it to the walls and how to apply a render, please keep us updated.
    Cheers
    Alan
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2009 edited
     
    Hi Alant

    At Futurebuild (or was it Ecobuild?) Proctors were demonstrating a new fixing method for the Fermacell/Aerogel laminate that was pretty neat. No plugging involved just drill and drive with special screws from Spit.
    They also had the first showings of a "wallpaper" type product based on the Aerogel fleece. At the moment it has a foil face so difficult to paint over but I'm told that will change. There was an example of wallpaper being applied directly to it although the paper chosen wouldn't have looked out of place in my local but at least they're getting there
    • CommentAuthorBobP
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2009
     
    Hi Saint, I looked at the "wallpaper" version in Ecobuild. The surface is uneven, they had used a very thick heavily textured wallpaper in order to mask this (... and it hadn't adhered very well!).

    IMO they will need to add a stiff surface layer (as with Sempatap) in order to get a decent finish.

    Hoping to insulate a Victorian loft & maybe a couple of external walls with this stuff.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2009
     
    Janetta, how did the experiment go with plastering over aerogel following the wobbly wall contours?
    • CommentAuthorarnyj
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2009
     
    Hi folks.

    I want to use spacetherm on my bathroom cieling I had a look on proctors website and soon after spoke to there tec. person on phone they rang me most impressive.

    She told me that if I intended to use spacetherm... to meet building regs of 0.16 then I would have to use 85mm and she reconmended it was bonded to plasterboard to make it as light as possible.
    She said Fermacell would make it quite heavy, which I was somewhat alarmed AT.

    I am not aware of the existing roof / cieling U value so I am only using there info.

    If I was to use a kingspan type board how thick would insulation have to be?

    I was not aware it could be put on without any backing board ?
    could I therefore buy it as a sheet and then put on ply wood or even get it fixed to ply

    I was told 20mm clad to plasterboard would cost £54 plus vat for a sq. metre,, less whatever discount we can get from builders merchant.

    Some one has said it is breathable is that true? I thought man made materials were not!

    yours sincerly Arnyj or Arnold
  16.  
    85mm of phenolic should give you 0.24ish, not allowing for any thermal bridging. If 20mm on pl'bd is £54/m2, I can only quake at what 85mm would be. I do not know what 85mm phenolic wd be, but a quote last week for 50mm phenolic bonded to pl'bd was appr £38 + VAT.
  17.  
    Janetta, did you get any more information on the detailed method they used to stick the aerogel to the internal wall surfaces in the Swiss mill?
    • CommentAuthorJanetta
    • CommentTimeJul 8th 2012
     
    Hello again. Whoops - sorry - not been on here for a while!

    Inially the general builder tried two layers of spacetherm on the landing - these were then covered with a layer of plasterboard and skimmed. Proctors were really good - can't praise them enough - they did some calculations to check for condensation (as the spacetherm is breathable and we weren't using foil) and these showed that there may be some condensation for low outside temperatures but the wall would dry out. The experiment worked well. There was a really noticable difference - so the utility and cloakroom were then done in the same way. Another big noticable difference.

    He then tried the bathroom which has an arched area - using just one layer of spacetherm. The photos I got from Aspens showed a wet primer (gypsum or lime) layer onto which spacetherm is positioned plus some mechanical fixation (4 fixing points per square metre) and a "standard" plaster's mesh and then more gypsum or lime. He was going to follow their method (I was at work so missed seeing it done) - using gypsum. We were limited, due to space, to one layer here but Aspens say another layer can be added (using spray PU adhesive).

    The two issues were the dust (gloves essential, ideally mask and even overalls and a vacuum with a hepa filter) and when doing any mechanical fixation he found that the drill bit snagged on the spacetherem with ease.

    We've also used spacetherm under the kitchen floor - we couldn't allow the floor to come up too much. Again this has helped.

    At the moment an en-suite is being put in and the builders have added two layers of spacetherm to all the external walls - using plasterboard on top as per the landing and utility. It has turned a very chilly room into a cosy one.

    Most North and some East walls have been insulated now (some, where there was more space, with Rockwool).

    I hope to use the spacetherm 'wallpaper' for the next room - if it easy to use now.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    Posted By: JanettaI hope to use the spacetherm 'wallpaper' for the next room - if it easy to use now.


    Does this stuff exist now? Do you have a link please? A quick google didn't find but threw up Sempatap which doesn't see the same - or is it?
    thanks!
  20.  
    Hi,

    No Sempatap isn’t the same thing; it’s a fairly dense foam wallpaper type. It’s a bit like covering the walls with a yoga mat. Again it’s been discussed here so another search will throw up some info. The main thing was that it’s not thick enough or offer enough insulation (resistance) to make much difference to room temps or energy consumption. That said something is better than nothing, and plaster straight on to solid wall straight to outside will always feel very cool (like a marble worktop), so for some even very small layers of insulation will give an apparent improvement by preventing the walls from feeling like a grave. The other factor is that as something like Sempatap will slightly increase the wall surface temperature (inside the room) it may make the difference if condensation has been a problem. The water vapour will go for the coldest surface and that can be a problem for some people (obviously proper ventilation is key) that could in some cases be alleviated by a slight rise in temp. Which is equivalent to a little more heat in the room.

    Cheers, Mike up North
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2012
     
    I've heard nothing from Mr Proctor himself about the aerogel wallpaper: they were having trouble with getting the stuff fire-rated or somesuch when I last spoke to him a while ago.

    Rgds

    Damon
  22.  
    Hi Damon, Mike and Robin, the "wallpaper" is still a work in progress i'm afraid, but work is progressing, albeit less rapidly than would be ideal. As this is a semi-decorative product aimed mainly at the DIY market, the development goalposts are considerably narrower than for a traditional building product like the fermacell/plasterboard laminates (finish quality, tolerances etc etc...). I'm afraid i can't give you any clues about timescales, but rest assured when it (finally) does appear we'll likely make a big noise about it :bigsmile:

    Janetta, glad to hear everything worked well for you. If you or your builders have any hints or tips to feedback on this type of installation we'd be pleased to hear from you. We're getting more interest in this kind of use, particularly on uneven walls (to retain the character of the building), so any info on site experiences is greatly appreciated.

    Graeme Berry (Tech Researcher at Proctors)
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Thanks Graeme!
    • CommentAuthormuddy
    • CommentTimeAug 8th 2012
     
    I've been using an aerogel blanket on the window reveals of my barn conversion, then render mesh and a lime plaster to finish. I needed a thin insulation material to keep as much of the window frame as possible. Despite what I thought was a carefull calculation, I'm about 1m2 short. Does anyone have that amount left over from their project, or would anyone be interested in sharing an order? Minimum orders seem to be way in excess of 1m2.
    • CommentAuthorBob M
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    Proctors sell small pieces of Spacetherm on Ebay.
  26.  
    Hi,

    Can anyone who has used the aerogel blanket on window reveals let me know how it was fixed? Like muddy, I have very little space to play with and I need to keep it breathable. I'm hoping I can just put a layer of lime plaster on the stone, then the aerogel blanket and then a top coat of lime. Would this hold?
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2013 edited
     
    > Would this hold?

    Unfortunately no.
    The blanket by itself is like thick and heavy felt. It does not wet easily and is not particularly permeable to plaster. For safety sake it is best to assume that nothing will stick to it.

    You ideally need some sort of lath (eg. we used EML though maybe someone here can suggest something better) over the top of the spacetherm to take the plaster.

    Then of course, how do you fix the lath? We managed to wedge ours in against the edge of the new window frames. Sounds messy but it worked quite well in the end and I cannot see any cold spots with the thermal imager even when really cold outside.
  28.  
    unlikely i'm afraid, the aerogel is too hydrophobic to get a grab in anything water based. when i've tried variations on this method before, nothing sticks with any conviction, it might hold superficially, but won't stand up to any sort of impact or pressure.

    The way i would approach this (note: not "official" proctor methods at the moment, try at your own risk) would either be 1) lime parge coat over reveal, then bond on a plasterboard/fermacell faced board using either silicon mastic or expanding foam (in strips or dabs to keep some permeability) or 2) stick the aerogel blanket to the reveal as for 1, then mechnically fix a metal lath through the blanket into the stone (separating layer recommended) then plaster onto the lath.

    i've got the exact same issue in my house, and i'll most likely be using something similar to these options (might even take some pictures...), however will probably be a few weeks till i get round to doing it. Both methods have been used successfully before though.
    • CommentAuthorNoodle
    • CommentTimeOct 16th 2013
     
    I had always discounted this spaceloft aerogel blanket as I thought it wasn't breathable and was instead looking at using woodfibre with lime plaster / render etc.

    Am very interested if people are using it as a breathable insulation on solid walled buildings? Is there much information on this apart from the 2 links below? It has Building control approval now?

    http://www.airtightdistribution.com/pdfs/Spaceloft_Data_Sheet.pdf

    http://www.aerogel.com/markets/Case_Study_House_Renovation_web.pdf


    Not quite clear, are the people above using this as internal or external? Does anyone have any advice/ experience / other sources of info for its external use/ fixing finished with a lime render?
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