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Housing - New Build: Triple glazed windows

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  1.  
    Posted By: fostertom
    Posted By: Mike Georgecheaply-coated raw outgoing-resistive
    Is there such a coated glass? what's it called? Maybe just 3G plain glass wd do it.


    Tas would allow these options to be tested, though I have not done this to date.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007
     
    4k - whoof!
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007 edited
     
    Worth it though if you need to provide proof of compliance with complex buidling shapes and systems. It is only a matter of time before the Part L2 required thermal modelling of ALL comercial buidings starts to be enforced properly. I believe a full SAP calc is currently being accepted in some areas- ridiculously simplistic
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007 edited
     
    So it's the real ultimate heavy duty modeller? Says it does airflow/thermal transfer better than anything else they know of - true? How far does that go - is it strictly ducts and grilles, or airflow through e.g. irregular spaces like between a trombe-type glass facade and the backing wall, then into ducts, then into mass-masonry voids, out thro' a wind-vane'd stack, tracking the thermal transfer between solids and airstream at every stage, and the buoyancy that might drive it? Now that's just what I need for my next project!

    Can 3D models be input from AutoCad, or only 2D that you then have to build the 3D on?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007 edited
     
    OK, I rang them and it's yes to both those questions, plus they're planning to link to Bentley Microstation as well as AutoCad. £3500 purchase + £1000 pa maintenance, compulsory in 1st yr, half that for a second seat - or £650 per qr incl maintenance, all + VAT, no disc. for 2nd seat. Price crossover at 2yrs 2 months!
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007 edited
     
    Airflow/leakage is modelled in several ways: Forced ventilation [ach/hr] is inputted either by value from a given zone; or by aperture if drawn in the geometry [windows/doors etc] Air leakage is modelled by placing a value in ach/hr lost from each zone.

    The drawing interface is very crude in my opinion
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007 edited
     
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeThe drawing interface is very crude in my opinion
    Hopefully this could be done in CAD
  8.  
    No. Importing from CAD makes it easier, but only in that you can trace over the 2D plan. The crudeness is the same whether you use the CAD option or not. To be honest accuracy to the mm is really not that important as it is the volume of the model which is more so. My main gripe is that the drawing commands could be simpler and more akin to CAD
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007 edited
     
    The man said you can import 3D model (assuming you've created one in CAD, which I aim to move to, from doing trad 2D drawings at present) direct, meaning no need to create 3rd dimension on a 2D plan? The 3D model might have to be simplified tho'.
  10.  
    That is news to me. Did they say which 3D package you can import from? I have heard romours for some time that EDSL intend to provide an import from ArchiCAD, but this has not been available on any version I have seen to date. I know that version 9.10 is imminent and it may be on that.

    Anyway not trying to put you off as I think tas is an excellent package overall. Regarding ArchiCAD I have also used it for some years now and there is absolutely no compatibility with AutoCAD [we are talking apples and oranges] The best 3D CAD software I have used is without doubt REVIT which is completely compatible with AutoCAD. If that is an option for tas then it will be a very powerful package indeed.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007
     
    Import from Autocad, incl 3D; planning to link likewise to Bentley Microstation; I didn't ask about Archicad. Darren Bentley (no relation), their development guy was aware of the huge leap in parametric 3D that Microstation Generative Components (still beta) represents. Microstation is definitely the horse to back, and can work natively in Autocad .dwg format anyway.

    Their marketing director's going to arrange to give me demo and I'll gather a few guys for the occasion, view possibly to share a multi-seat deal to reduce cost - anyone interested (Exeter)?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007
     
    Keith do you want to shift this computer modelling stuff to a new topic? Then I'd like to get back to 3G in this topic.
  13.  
    From 3G to Thermal Modelling:

    Thermal Modelling:
    The environmental modeling tool Ecotect can be used with ArchiCAD. Ecotect is not as advanced as TAS in that it relies upon steady state modeling rather than dynamic modelling.
    PassivHaus Planning Package is about as detailed as they get whilst remaining architect "friendly." It's a highly evolved steady state modeling tool that has a proven track record i.e. most of the PassivHaus projects.

    Back to the glazing:
    Tom, as you note the principle purpose behind Low E is to reflect long wave radiation and admit shortwave radiation. The Low E coating doesn't "know" where the long wave radiation comes from it just reflects it, consequently Low E does act selectively and reduce g-value as it reflects some external long wave radiation. Once external short wave radiation has traveled through the glazing it changes to long wave. This is then partially reflected (and thus partially retained) by the glazing and low E. The lower the emissivity the more long wave radiation is reflected (applies to inside and out).
    I'm certainly no expert in glazing or low E so I can't talk about the properties of low E in any great detail beyond what I've said (i.e. I can't comment on the wave lengths over which various low E coatings are selective etc. as Tom (or was it Biff) asked earlier).

    Mark
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007 edited
     
    Mike George, did I get a hint you're in Bristol? All additional seats are £1500 + £500pa maintenance + VAT, but the first seat is twice that price. So the more seats, the cheaper, but in diminishing benefit.

    It would be great to have a get-together in the context of some serious energy modelling - maybe they'd put on an extra-good session if there were several of us.

    But PassivHaus Planning Package - www.passivhaus.org.uk/index.jsp?id=672 - £120 + VAT! How does it compare, Mark?
    "whilst PHPP includes a worksheet for calculating the U-values of components it is not sufficiently accurate for UK purposes as it does not adhere to BRE document Conventions for U-value calculations (2006 Edition). Suitable U-value calculator software packages include BRE's own U-value calculator, or other software packages such as BuildDesks free U-value calculator."

    Elsewhere on Passivhaus site:
    Windows (glazing and frames, combined) should have U-Values not exceeding 0.80 W/m²/K, with solar heat-gain coefficients around 50%. The Solar Heat Gain Co-efficient (SHGC) is provided as a guide, it can be adjusted for glazing on different facades. This can help either reduce heat loss on sheltered sides/ north facing glazing, or alternatively help to reduce the likelihood of overheating when specified in conjunction with other features/strategies (please note that the SHGC of a window usually decreases as the U-value improves).
  15.  
    Cardiff, you?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2007
     
    Dartmoor - Exeter area
  17.  
    Tom,
    I have been in contact with the BRE and an experienced PassivHaus architect about this. Basically PHPPs U-value calculator requires more care when using it i.e. its not as idiot proof hence BRE statement "does not adhere to BRE document Conventions for U-value calculations (2006 Edition) " For this reason the BRE prefer people to use one of the two pieces of software that they approve of. I have been reassured that it does calculate to the appropriate ISO standard.

    >>>Elsewhere on Passivhaus site:
    and? (not sure what point you are making.) This agrees with what I've been saying.

    Mark
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 10th 2007
     
    Posted By: Mark SiddallThis agrees with what I've been saying
    Yes me too, just corroborating.

    Is PPHP @£150 a full alternative to Tas @£4000, or more limited, or something different?
  19.  
    Do we know if PPHP uses 2D or 3D CAD input?
  20.  
    Tom,
    Fair enough. Suspected that was the case.

    Mike
    2D, but that's okay for less complex projects such as houseing (compared to schools offices etc.)

    Mark
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007
     
    To the several people who have emailed me asking for results of the 3G survey, results will be published here. I'm awaiting quotes from all the UK suppliers of genuine 3G Scandinavian-style windows that I can find - mostly European imports, 1 UK co with their own design and 2 UK cos who are seeing whether they can broaden their extg 2G opening sash sections. So many more, both European cos and universally UK cos insist that hi-spec 2G is all that's necessary, not only "for UK market" but for Europe too. Broadly, Sweden seems to be 3G, rest of Europe incl. Norway 2G.

    However, without exception the 3G units offered are only 2x12mm gap, not the optimum 2x16mm, even tho' same cos offer 1x16mm in their 2G alternatives. Today got an explanation from Tanums UK: their top-spec 3G units even at 2x12mm are more insulative than the timber frame. So next step is thermal-break timber frames; at that point broader opening sashes will come in, enabling 2x16mm 3G units.
    Posted By: fostertomWhen extra-special low E coatings and/or 3G result in super-low U values, does that or does it not include the expectation of solar gain reducing nett seasonal heat loss, giving a lower 'effective' U value?
    Tanums answered: no it does not; the U-values quoted are for simple outgoing heat loss, without incorporation of expectated solar gain.
    • CommentAuthorJohan
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertom
    However, without exception the 3G units offered are only 2x12mm gap, not the optimum 2x16mm, even tho' same cos offer 1x16mm in their 2G alternatives. Today got an explanation from Tanums UK: their top-spec 3G units even at 2x12mm are more insulative than the timber frame. So next step is thermal-break timber frames; at that point broader opening sashes will come in, enabling 2x16mm 3G units.
    There is one Swedish supplier on the UK market using a 4-16-4-16-4 build with Argon filling, they achive an over all U-value of 0.9W/m2K. The timber frame is 105mm deap though.

    I'm not sure what is considered advertising here so I'll just put the link their webpage here and you'll have to find your way aorund yourself :cool:: http://www.elitfonster.se

    In Sweden they are now using the A-G energi efficiency scale for windows, where 0.9=A and 1.5=G...
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007
     
    Can-do 3G cos: Scandinavian Window Systems (various import), Green Building Store (UK own design), Russell (UK own design), Sashless (UK own design), Scandinavian Timber, Swedish Timber (SP), Tanums, Rembrand (Traryd), Inwido (formerly Swedhouse)
    Possibles: Boyland, Dream (from China!), Whitaker
    In development: Fitzroy, A-plus, Howarth (clued-up - manufs of the Supply-Air Window)

    Can't do 3G cos include: Mumford & Wood, Allan Bros, Arden, Broxwood (Mestervindu), Ecomerchant, Jeld-Wen, Jewson, Magnet, Premdor etc, Nor-Dan, Rationel, Vrogum

    So, not a lot of choice. Am I missing any, like super-windows from Canada, Germany etc?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007
     
    Johan, Elitfonster is part of the group that's called Inwido in UK. Anything 95-115 frame depth is normal in this class. I couldn't get any glass spec out of that website - could you facilitate more info?
    • CommentAuthorJohan
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007
     
    I know they are part of that group, but I wasn't sure how it goes with advertising as I said...

    I just had a look at the Swedish documentation, maybe I should've made sure the English one was available as well...sorry... :wink:
    Anyway, it's the Elit Extreme window I mean. Free transalation to English says 4-16-4-16-4, Argon fill, warm edge spacers, one low-E glass, one low-E with sun protection film glass and (I assume) the third glass is plain then. It'd be Pilkington glass for sure.

    Here's the English fact sheet: http://www.elitfonster.se/Archive/Documents/Produktblad/Axh-en.pdf

    Personally I'm not sure such high perfromance windows are of any use in the UK (except maybe the outher Hebredies then...). You'll just get problems with condesation on the outside, etc.

    Tom,
    Many thanks for the UK contact for Traryd, been trying to poke a quote out of the Traryd export sales manager for some time...with little success...may have better luck with Rembrand. They make some very good looking windows (personal opinion!). :smile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007
     
    Great Johann, I've just asked Inwido to quote that alternative, provided it's available all-timber not Al clad.
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007
     
    Posted By: fostertom
    Can't do 3G cos include: Mumford & Wood, Allan Bros, Arden, Broxwood (Mestervindu), Ecomerchant, Jeld-Wen, Jewson, Magnet, Premdor etc, Nor-Dan, Rationel, Vrogum

    Probably more of a 'won't do' than a 'can't do'. There's nothing technically difficult about making a unit with three layers of glass and putting it into a windowframe. If someone asked me for one I'd say sure but I doubt it's worth it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007
     
    Posted By: biffvernonbut I doubt it's worth it
    Why?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007
     
    Because the U-value only falls a little bit and there may be better places to spend your money. Law of diminishing returns.
    • CommentAuthorTerry
    • CommentTimeAug 15th 2007
     
    Tom
    Regarding your list of companies who cant do 3G you include Vrogum.
    I happen to have a Vrogum catalogue in front of me and in it they detail 'Ewitherm 0.8' and 'Ewitherm 1.0' inward opening doors which acording to the sectional drawings consist of 3G (total glasing depth 44 and 36). The frames and sashes are all made of spruce with cork thermal breaks. ) ).8 and 1.0 refer to whole unit u-values aparently.
    Catalogue is in english and obtained from UK distributer so presumably these are offered in the UK??

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