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General: Installing a ground source heat pump

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    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2011
     
    I am reading it :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2011
     
    So am I. It's very informative topher, please keep it up.:thumbup:
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2011
     
    Thanks chaps. I will keep going. I am particularly interested if others have found partly blocked filters too.

    Best regards from a cloudy but temperate France (10 ºC outside),............Topher

    PS. How do you know when someone has put a new entry? It is a pain looking at it each day.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2011 edited
     
    I'm still reading too! Keep on with the reports please. We're not the instant-gratification X-Factor Dancing With MasterLittleChef crowd. B^>

    Rgds

    Damon

    PS. For me, all newly-updated threads float to the top when using this URL: http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/
  5.  
    As a fellow GSHP owner (albeit water-to-air) I've been reading this thread from the beginning and enjoy the updates!

    Cheers,

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeNov 24th 2011
     
    Paul, Thanks. Have you checked the filter in your primary circuit - if you have one?

    Regards,............Topher.
  7.  
    Posted By: topherPaul, Thanks. Have you checked the filter in your primary circuit - if you have one?
    Nope, there's no filter as far as I'm aware. The installation using a "flush cart" was supposed to remove all the debris. So far in the 7 heating seasons (including the current one) the system has been in operation we've had one airlock that caused a dramatic loss of output and a "low refrigerant" alarm. The alarm was due to low pressure in the gas circuit due to restricted flow in the primary water circuit - basically no heat to evaporate the refrigerant and so the system thought it had escaped. The airlock was removed and everything returned to normal. I asked if there should be a pressure regulator but was told it was not necessary for the length of loop we have. Apparently it can take a few years for all the air to work itself out - especially as the pressures change between heating and cooling modes. There is an air bleed valve on the pumping module which I check every few weeks and there have been no problems since.

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeNov 25th 2011
     
    Hi Topher, definitely still reading here. I look out for your updates.
    Interesting to hear from Paul also about the kind of things that might happen. It's all sounding a bit less "Zanussi" ("Appliance of Science") and more like an old motorbike from the tinkering perspective. At least they don't leak oil (like our previous NEW oil fired boiler did in my office!).
    Please keep the updates coming.

    IF I do have a filter then I'm not aware of it. I thought the whole system was pretty much sealed.

    Our second heat pump (a 12kW, vs the first 4kW that has been running a few months now) will be installed in a few weeks time.

    Where is your filter and what does it look like?
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2011
     
    Sprocket,

    Here is a picture of the valve and filter. It is in the flow circuit to the heat pump, so it protects the heat exchanger in the heat pump from debris in the primary circuit - things that get in during the installation like jointing compound. If you close the valve and undo the hex cover it exposes the filter. It is held in place with a cir-clip.

    The closed valve stops all the expensive anti-freeze mixture coming out. When the filter is clean and replaced, and the hex cover re-fitted, the valve is opened again. A small amount of air is rapidly removed by the automatic air vents and everything is fine.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2011
     
    Sprocket,

    I can only do one picture at a time. Here is the filter that I took out. You can see that it is partly blocked.

    It is now clean of course!

    Regards,..............Topher
  11.  
    I'm reading too!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2011
     
    If you want to put more than one picture into the same comment, do the first one as normal and submit it. Then go back and edit it and just browse for the other picture/s and re-submit it.
    • CommentAuthorDavipon
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2011
     
    I wonder what the particles are?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2011
     
    Try a magnet on them, that will put it into one of two classes for starters.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2011
     
    There are 10 classes of people in this world: those who understand binary, and all the rest...
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2011
     
    I wish I had thought before I flushed the crud away! It looked like the sealant used with the hemp on the screwed pipe joints. This is another good reason to use the electrically welded pipe as we have discussed before. I wish I had insisted on it.

    The first time I cleaned the filter, about a year ago, I put the debris in a saucer. I could see bits of fibre from the hemp used to seal the screwed joints and slivers of black plastic - the pipes are made of black plastic. When I showed them in just a mildly accusatory way to the installer, he said the plastic did not come from him. He showed me the special cutter used on the pipe and it seemed to make the cut very cleanly. Perhaps the company that made the dual 120 meter pipe lengths with a U bend did it. I do have 4 of them, all connected in parallel.

    If I find any magnetic particles in future, I guess they must come from the circulating pump.

    Today is a white Tempo Tariff day in France. Electricity costs 58% per unit more than the price of the cheapest blue day, but the heating is still cheaper than outrageously expensive propane that I was using before the heat pump.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2011
     
    Bonjour,

    I am slightly embarrassed to write this, very nerdy, but it may be of interest.

    I have calculated the cost of the last two space weeks heating using French nuclear electricity. The inside temperature has been between 19 and 20ËšC, the mild outside between 6 and 13ËšC. The heated floor area is 193 sq. meters, the volume 528 cu. meters. I have allowed for the three white days (more expensive) and the standing charge. Errors could be caused by my maths, the Kw/h meter and temperature measurement errors. I believe the figure is likely to be on the high side because I have assumed even consumption during the 24 hours, however it is colder at night, therefore the compressor will run more, but the off peak price of electricity is lower at night.

    I get 12.79 €, or £10.98 for 14 days
    Or 91 euro centimes per day, or 78 pence per day.

    I think this is pretty good. What do you think?

    Regards,..........Topher.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2011
     
    At first blush I'd say that's comparable per m^2 with what we're paying for gas central heating. I can do a real calc for that period if you'd like, though I may need to take my socks off...

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2011
     
    Damon,

    That surprises me. If I am truly getting a COP of 4.0, for every 1 Kw I put in, I get 4 Kw out. The average cost per Kw for the period was 0.06938 Euros or 0.05945 Pounds Sterling. If I divide these numbers by 4 to get the cost per Kw, the costs become 0.01735 € or £0.01486 per Kw. I have factored in the standing charge.

    Maybe it would be easier to compare the cost of a Kw - you wont have to take your socks off! How much do you pay for a Kw coming from the hot water in your radiators, that would include the boiler efficiency?

    Regards,.............Topher.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2011
     
    Posted By: topherThe average cost per Kw for the period was 0.06938 Euro...


    kWh (or if you're being really precious, kW·h).
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2011
     
    Ed, yes. I should have put kWh or kW-h. :shamed: Apologies.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2011 edited
     
    I'm not at home at the moment, but I *think* gas is about 4p/kWh as it arrives through the meter, and our boiler is ~78% efficient at best, so lets say 5p/kWh of actual heat delivered to my poor freezing children huddled crying by the radiator... (Gas standing charge is ~£100/y out of total bill of ~£360/y, so maybe my per-kWh numbers need further inflation.)

    But we only used ~7kWh/day (12kWh/day including DHW and cooking) for Nov, so 35p per day, weighted more towards the end of the Month as things got colder, but anyhow about 35p/day for 76m^2 heated floor area. So comparable still I think.

    Rgds

    Damon

    PS. imeasure tells me that our total gas costs have been ~£4 per week for the last couple of weeks.
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2011
     
    Damon,

    Since our dwellings are totally different in size, insulation and so on, I guess maybe all we can do is compare cost of basic energy that goes into the rooms to heat them.

    You pay about £0.05 per kW-h. I pay about £0.01486. A ratio of 3.36. Of course the ratio would be the other way round if we compared capital costs!

    Regards,............Topher.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2011
     
    Yes, meaningful comparisons are tricky: I think that kWh/m^2 and kWh/m^2/HDD are reasonable normalisations if you want to try them!

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthortopher
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2011
     
    OK, I need a bit of clarification. The first is a measure kW-h per square meter of heated floor space, right? the second is kW-h per square meter of floor space per HDD. What is HDD?

    What about outside temperature, I don't have accurate records of that.

    Amicalement,........Topher.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeDec 4th 2011
     
    1) Yes.

    2) Yes.

    3) HDD = Heating Degree Days, eg see degreedays.net which has some good explanatory text. I take a base temperature of 12C since it seems to fit our actual data better than the standard 15.5C, and that's what I'm using for our local school for the same reason.

    4) Usual way to get decent external temperatures without actually measuring them yourself is to find your nearest airport (or reliable weather station) and use those: for us LHR / EGLL / Heathrow fits the bill.

    Rgds

    Damon
  27.  
    MY GSHP IS OPERATIONAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cheer::clap::jumping::jumping::thumbup::tooth::thumbup::swingin::rolling::crazy::clap::cheer:
    My feet are lovely and warm and all is good in the world, as long as the world is my 4 walls!
    DHW 52 deg, UFH temp set to 40 deg maximum (rads upstairs). Hp set to level 4 from a possible 10. Now I need to play with it and learn the best set up for my property and how we use it.
    I wish though I had gone for UFH upstairs.
    Never mind, maybe next time, WHOOOOOOP WHOOOOOOP,
    Gusty.:jumping::tooth::tooth::tooth:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
     
    :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
     
    Good man! Happy Christmas for you then!

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 20th 2011
     
    You can usually get a refund on un-opened presents like slippers, thermals, jumpers, socks etc. Always take the ones I am given back. :wink:

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