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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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Renewable Energy: Biomass - a burning issue

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    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2012
     
    I don't feel I have to defend myself here :rolling:
  2.  
    Posted By: SteamyTeaI don't feel I have to defend myself herehttps:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/happy/rolling.gif" alt=":rolling:" title=":rolling:" >


    Neither do I.

    Surely any technology that allows you to heat your home using a log instead of a box of logs must be worthwhile especially when you dont have the pollution problems associated with combustion.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2012
     
    To see what John is talking about, google Lloyd Tanner Friction Boiler

    I've no idea whether or how well it works.
  4.  
    Posted By: djhTo see what John is talking about, google Lloyd Tanner Friction Boiler

    I've no idea whether or how well it works.


    It works even better with thermal oil and a steam evaporator
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2012
     
    Sounds like another lunatic perpetual motion machine.

    "Lloyed Tanner, on the other hand, has built a device in his garage that can boil water and create steam pressure using the heat of FRICTION... you know, the same thing that lights matches, and overheats our automobile brakes. His prototype presses pieces of oak 4 by 4s onto a metal wheel being spun by an electric motor. The wheel soon becomes a spinning "hot plate" that can heat water in a boiler to create steam pressure that can run a generator to supply electricity to run not only the motor turning the wheel, but everything in his house as well."
  6.  
    Posted By: billtSounds like another lunatic perpetual motion machine.

    "Lloyed Tanner, on the other hand, has built a device in his garage that can boil water and create steam pressure using the heat of FRICTION... you know, the same thing that lights matches, and overheats our automobile brakes. His prototype presses pieces of oak 4 by 4s onto a metal wheel being spun by an electric motor. The wheel soon becomes a spinning "hot plate" that can heat water in a boiler to create steam pressure that can run a generator to supply electricity to run not only the motor turning the wheel, but everything in his house as well."


    Certainly not perpetual motion as your using the chemical energy within the wood. Similar technology to that found in a Clem engine using thermal oil and steam.
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2012
     
    His claims amount to getting more energy out of the system than you put in, i.e. a perpetual motion machine.

    Sorry, but one website with no detailed explanation, incredible claims and a Heath Robinson drawing looks like the work of yet another nutcase. If you can point to a working, independently verified version I might change my view, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
  8.  
    Cough " heat pump " cough :wink:
  9.  
    There is no claim of getting more energy out then you put in. Its just a different more efficient way of raising steam using a flash boiler and torrefied wood rather than conventional boiler and combusted wood. You would not get very far in a Stanley steamer without a flash boiler.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2012
     
    It is one up on perpetual motion, perpetual energy is what is being claimed....
  11.  
    Any sort of biomass is perpetual energy while the sun keeps shining just look how many millions of years trees have been growing on the planet.
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2012
     
    A heat pump uses an external source of energy to move heat from one place to another. At one point temperature is reduced, at another temperature is raised. This is well understood and doesn't violate any physical laws.

    This device claims to be able to both run itself and generate excess energy without an external energy source, and hence violates well understood physical laws.

    From our very limited, short term, point of view, we won't run out of solar energy. The sun will still die though and it isn't a perpetual motion machine.

    Posted By: renewablejohnThere is no claim of getting more energy out then you put in.


    As I quoted above - "The wheel soon becomes a spinning "hot plate" that can heat water in a boiler to create steam pressure that can run a generator to supply electricity to run not only the motor turning the wheel, but everything in his house as well." Which is claiming precisely that energy is generated with no energy input.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2012
     
    Posted By: billtThis device claims to be able to both run itself and generate excess energy without an external energy source, and hence violates well understood physical laws.

    The device consumes the wood. Until I see an analysis that either claims the chemical energy of the wood forms the energy source, or a counter-analysis that proves it cannot, I'll keep my mind open. I haven't yet seen any proof that it violates physical laws. Nor any that it does perform net useful work.
  14.  
    If you want to look at reasons why it should work I suggest looking at Steam electricity and the work carried out by Faraday in respect of Friction
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2012
     
    Posted By: djhThe device consumes the wood. Until I see an analysis that either claims the chemical energy of the wood forms the energy source, or a counter-analysis that proves it cannot, I'll keep my mind open. I haven't yet seen any proof that it violates physical laws. Nor any that it does perform net useful work.


    I think that in this instance Occam's razor is quite useful!

    Posted By: renewablejohnIf you want to look at reasons why it should work I suggest looking at Steam electricity and the work carried out by Faraday in respect of Friction


    Would you care to provide a more explicit reference for Faraday's work on Friction? I've just spent some time googling and the only reference that I can find is a postulation that ice is covered by a thin film of liquid. Almost all of his work seems to have been related to chemistry and electromagnetism.
  16.  
    Here is a reference

    http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P6.pdf

    First came across it in respect of Health and Safety in cleaning out oil storage tanks with powered steam cleaners.
  17.  
    Detailed reference to Faradays work

    http://volcaniclightning.tripod.com/steam.htm
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2012
     
    they both seem to relate to an electric charge being produced directly by friction within steam itself, which doesn't seem to have any relevance at all to the previous statements you made.

    Farraday "3.The electricity is due entirely to the friction of particles of water which the steam carries forward against the surrounding solid matter of the passage (He devised various jets - has had Armstrong - for the water to impinge upon)."

    What's the relevance to the situation you're describing?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2012
     
    Posted By: Gavin_Athey both seem to relate to an electric charge being produced directly by friction within steam itself
    That would be static electricity then.
  20.  
    Posted By: Gavin_Athey both seem to relate to an electric charge being produced directly by friction within steam itself, which doesn't seem to have any relevance at all to the previous statements you made.

    Farraday "3.The electricity is due entirely to the friction of particles of water which the steam carries forward against the surrounding solid matter of the passage (He devised various jets - has had Armstrong - for the water to impinge upon)."

    What's the relevance to the situation you're describing?


    Gavin

    Faraday does mention turpentine and oils as well as friction all of which are part of the system described earlier.
  21.  
    Posted By: djhTo see what John is talking about, google Lloyd Tanner Friction Boiler

    I've no idea whether or how well it works.


    Gone quite a bit beyond this in respect of MHD but the above is ok for first principles
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2012 edited
     
    John, have you got a source that shows that this idea is actually being developed and is practical and scalable? One guy tinkering in his garage isn't very convincing IMO, but you seem like you've seen something that has convinced you enough to make it worth mentioning.

    Are there any papers published on it, and/or is anyone developing it commercially?

    There seem to be a few US patents kicking about from the 80's for friction boilers, but not biomass ones.
  23.  
    Seret

    The serious research in MHD is for coal fired power with China and Japan leading the way. The technology is quite well understood and is used as a top slice for combustion, the output from which fires normal steam combustion. A typical coal plant with MHD would have electrical efficiency upto 60% compared to normal 40%, With current gas prices MHD research is on the back burner in UK and US as a gas plant can also achieve 60% without the cost or technical difficulties.

    I will let the man carry on tinkering in his garage. However

    If you look at MHD systems requiring a stream of charged particles to work and then analyse the work of Faraday and others in relation to charged steam droplets I cannot see any reason why biomass cannot be used in the first stage of a MHD system. A MHD system converts kinetic energy whether that kinetic energy is due to chemical energy or friction is irrelevant.
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2012
     
    Sorry John, I don't really see what research into magentohydrodynamic generators has to do with your friction boiler idea. A friction boiler raising steam isn't required for MHD generation. Why do you think that it would be possible or desirable to get this stream of charged particles from a cloud of steam, and specifically why that steam would have to generated in a friction boiler rather conventional methods. I don't know much about MHD generators, but I can't imagine that if they require such a stream of charged particles that it would constitute a major parasitic load on the system. Particles are small, cheap and easily controlled.

    I was asking if the friction boiler itself was the subject of serious development, which from your answer I'm assuming it isn't?
  25.  
    Seret

    The friction between the wood and metal is already producing a stream of charged steam particles, using that stream will increase the overall efficiency of the system. As regards the friction boiler it is just part of a normal thermal oil loop producing steam on demand.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2012
     
    All sound like the Second Law of Thermodynamics is still intact to me, unless anyone else knows different.:wink:
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2012
     
    Posted By: renewablejohnusing that stream will increase the overall efficiency of the system.


    How so, and by how much? Who's doing this research?

    What is this "stream of charged particles" required for anyway? As far as I can tell, for an MHD generator you pass a charged fluid through a magentic field and bob's your uncle. Are you suggesting that the steam from your friction generator would be the actual working fluid of the MHD? Why would that be better than just using the Hall effect powered by the electricity generated in the MHD itself?
  28.  
    Seret

    If you look at that Lloyd Tanner video you basically have two 4x4 pieces of oak in point contact with a spinning drum. You have two sources of steam in his system. First on top of the hotplate is a flash boiler producing conventional steam. Second the contact point between wet oak and the spinning drum which will have a pyrolysis point. This Is the part I am concerned with producing a charged ring which can be used for MHD.
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2012
     
    Can you actually explain how and why though?

    I like novel ideas, but my BS meter is generally on a bit of a hair trigger on the internet, and your vagueness and the fact that you haven't provided any sources isn't helping much.

    I get that this guy has a machine that turns electricity and wood into steam, I just don't see what's so special about that, and you've not shown us any actual link between it and MHD generators.
    • CommentAuthorGavin_A
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2012
     
    Regardless of whether the tech John is talking about might one day work, I'm assuming that it's nowhere near to being market ready technology, or we'd have had a link to an example by now.

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