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Housing - New Build: Home made 'SIPs' - or IPs (no structural!)

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    • CommentAuthorvilarman
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    I'm designing an extension and looking to make my own insulated panels, like SIPs, but enveloping a parallam/similar frame which will be the structure. I've seen a couple of threads in the US about making these at home, using adhesive to bond OSB to 1500mm EPS to OSB, but I wonder if anyone in UK has done this? Implications in terms of cost, ease etc.

    My idea is that the build slots together very quickly as I'll have pre-made the panels in my garage, so the labour costs would be minimised for the build itself!

    Also, what are the pros and cons of expanded and extruded foam?

    I've looked around for a supplier of 1500mm EPS in South Wales (I'm Cardiff based) but can't find anything. Any ideas?

    Suggestions/criticisms welcome! I want it to work!
    • CommentAuthorevan
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    1500mm? Don't you mean 150?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    I think it is quite possible (assuming 150mm thick). Not so different from the way that 'unsinkable' sailing dingys were made in the 70's, think Toppers and Lazers. Just a different skin material. Should not be hard to adhere PU foam to ply if that is needed.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    I love the sound of 1500mm though
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    Tony
    Be ideal for EWI, not so sure about internal though:bigsmile:
  6.  
    With 1500mm of IWI on its 2 extrenal walls I am sure my resultant 2 x 3.5m living room would be reasonably warm...
    Even more so if I included that insulation on the N-facing bay window!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    Be cosy too Nick, "swing a cat" comes to mind:cool:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    We are soo cruel -- the OP was probably only trying not upset me by using centimeters (non SI units)

    Stop it now please
    • CommentAuthorevan
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    Well it sounds like a good idea :) Is there any reason people don't make their own SIPs? It would certainly be easier to get the airtightness and insulation detailing done right with it lying flat, out of the elements so you can take your time.
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    I don't know what sort of EPS you are using, because both its surfaces needs to be good for gluing to. I believe people sell "stripped(?)" foam just for this purpose, normally used for warm flat roofs.
    frank
    • CommentAuthorFlubba
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    Can you actually get EPS that has something stuck to it because i've only really seen plain stuff whereas i've only ever seen PIR and PUR with foil? (I know you can get the PIR and PUR without foil)
    • CommentAuthorvilarman
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    Yes 150mm whoops! If I had the space perhaps 1500 would be quite interesting! Snug as a bug!

    In terms of what sort of eps, I was thinking plain thick sheets. The contact would not have to be amazing between the OSB and the EPS as it wouldn't be structural, though it would have to have the strength to hold the windows.

    The discussion in the US mentioned about using a vacuum press to seal the adhesive properly to the osb and eps, but I don't have one and as the structure will come from the glulam frame I don't think I will do more than weigh it down with blocks. I'll put an illustration on later if I get a chance so you can see what I'm thinking of. Appreciate any comments! (even if teasing my mistake!)
    • CommentAuthorvilarman
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    Just spent a while drawing some details to add to the thread so you can see what I'm talking about, but don't know how to add a jpeg? I've seen others adding pics in other threads - how do they do it?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2010
     
    Make sure the jpg is less than half a meg, go to the bottom of the page and find the Attachments button, navigate to where you have saved the file (The Desktop is really handy for this) and then select the file and press Open. Finish the message in the normal way.

    Regarding using a Vacuum Bag, not really necessary but you can make one from a large plastic sheet and a vacuum cleaner (Henry Hoover is good here). Large heavy weights are evenly spread are just as good though (Paving Slabs).
    You can get PU Foam sheet covered in a glass fibre tissue. Not sure if you can get it in 150mm thickness, but it is well worth it if you can as it makes a lot less mess when cutting it and helps the bonding no end.
    In the Glossup and High Wycombe used to be the PU Foam capitals of the country. Worth looking at yell.com to see if any are still around. Failing that whisper me and I shall see what I can find out for you.
    We used to bod with a mixture of Polyester resins, cheap and cheerful though a bit smelly at first. Big advantage of polyester is that it does not need post curing like most epoxies. If you can get hold of a bit of OSB and PU foam try a few tests with different adhesives.
  15.  
    In the 80s when internal insulation was mainly done with styroliner (XPS) I found that buying styrofoam and plasterboard separately was significantly cheaper. I used EVA glue and lots of weights. It's still there on my walls!
    • CommentAuthorvilarman
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Been trying to work out why I can't attach, but I wasn't signed in so there was no attachments button!

    Anyway, here's a couple of illustrations of what I've been planning - let me know what you think?
      cross-section of IPs wall.jpg
    • CommentAuthorvilarman
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Also this - apologies for poor quality of this one!
      wall detail.jpg
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Watch the DPM/DPC and rain splash. eg how high are your blocks out of the ground? Make sure the blocks are suitable for exposing (eg frost proof).
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Claims to have upto 150mm...

    http://www.secondsandco.co.uk/Products.html
    • CommentAuthorevan
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    vilar: is that "vapour membrane" in the right place? What type is it? Are you having a VCL on the inside of the OSB as well (or tape the joins and structural beams)?
    • CommentAuthorvilarman
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    CWatters, yes the DPC - forgot to put that on the diagram - also, good point about the frost resistant blocks as the site is a gentle slope, some will be exposed, though the idea is to try to bring cladding to floor (I just added all the below wall stuff afterwards so didn't continue the exterior down to the bottom of the image!)

    evan, don't know if vapour membrane is in right place - I know it needs to be inbetween the OSB and cladding, but not sure if it should be inside or outside the studs? Also, yes, forgot to add vapour membrane on inside too. Will update my drawings later with all these!
    • CommentAuthorvilarman
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Also...just thinking, a SIPs has two OSB skins to provide structural integrity. If I go with a post and beam structure, do you think the OSB skins would be redundant? At the moment I have them to join the EPS to the beam, but if I can find another way and avoid the cost of the OSB (which I think would be substantial)...

    Anyone able to advise?
    • CommentAuthorevan
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Timber frames usually need some sort of skin nailed on to prevent racking, right?

    Have you considered not doing the IP thing, and just nailing OSB across the outside of the posts and then do EPS / stud frame / plasterboard on the inside as normal? Might be a slightly thicker wall but it sounds easier and cheaper to me :)
    • CommentAuthorvilarman
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Hi Evan, yes that's definitely a possibility. My reasons for wanting the panels glued is to a) minimise air passing through and b) cut down on construction time and therefore labour costs. Also I just liked the challenge of making the insulated panels over the winter, having them ready in the garage, and then fitting it all together like lego in the spring!

    But your suggestion would make it easier to build. My method had involved putting up a bit of the frame, sliding in a panel, then a bit more of the frame, sliding in a panel etc...hmmm...will think on...
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010 edited
     
    The "vapour membrane" shown in the diagram on the outside should be a vapour permeable roofing membrane. I've used VP400 from Screwfix on a timber clad out building behind overlapping oak boards. You can leave it exposed for at least three months before cladding. I used 12mm marine/WBP plywood rather than OSB to provide anti racking.

    I believe Building Control will want a vapour barrier (plastic sheet) on the inside. I would fit that before the battens and plasterboard. Just staple it up and tape over any joints. Then go measure a back box (35mm?) and arrange for the battens and plasterboard to be slightly deeper. Fit the backbox and wiring before plasterboarding, then offer up the plasterboard and use the back box to mark it's own position. Cut hole in plasterboard before fitting.

    Get this ok'd by an electrician or make sure the BCO knows you are doing your own wiring. Maybe an additional fee and he may want an electrician to do a PIR report.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Where will your air barrier be?
    • CommentAuthorevan
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Wouldn't the plastic sheet do that?
    • CommentAuthorOtterbank
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Hi vilarman, we just built a traditional kit in our shed over the winter too. Plywood skin on the out side of the sections and filled with insulation from the link that CWatters gave.The kit was 145 and the insulation was more or less that thickness, it didn't vary more than 10 mm which I thought was ok for seconds.I glued the insulation in round the edges, just need to hold it in place for a moment to make sure the foam didn't push it out.If we had the room it would have been good to put the insulation into the kit as we made it.We were guided away from trying to make our own SIP panels, a bit from our engineer and a bit from the BCO. Personally I think quality control may have been a problem any way.As we filled the void with insulation we ran wires in trunking but it could have been strapped out to to make a void.We were being told it would need 50mm strapping time, money and motivation finally put a stop to that.Think we had a thread on here at the time suggesting that the 50mm was over kill but I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of arguing it out with them.We had to build wind bracing into the gable end and use full height timbers because we have a vaulted ceiling.All the kit sections were glued to the sole plate and each other.Sorry bit of a ramble,if you think I can help in any way just ask,probably in the what not to do area of the build.:wink:
    • CommentAuthorevan
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    Vilarman, have you considered other options apart from EPS?

    For example, wood fibre: http://www.insulationexpress.co.uk/documents/NaturePro%20Brochure.pdf - there an example wall makeup there, the price of the materials aren't that daft either, looking at that site.

    Could be more soundproof and gives you some thermal mass.

    Another completely different approach Durisol blocks (pre-insulated blocks made from wood waste which you pour concrete in to fix!)
    Just mentioning it because I'd never heard of them before but it seems like an interesting option for a self build.

    There's also hemcrete, that can work with external cladding and a wooden structure.
    • CommentAuthorFlubba
    • CommentTimeNov 10th 2010
     
    When the 2 storey extension was built onto this house the timber frame was made up in panels in the garden and then when we were ready assembled together onto the block wall with a DPC. Reasonably Easy peasy and to be honest less risky than trying to make your own insualted panels although it would be nice to try it.

    I guess you want to try the insulated panel idea because the glu-lam (?) frame takes all of the major loads so im not really sure what i would do.

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