Thanks Ted, yes my installer is MCS accredited,
Gusty.

Are you on the gas mains?

I think that you should also post the old one to the Treasury with insufficient stamps... %-P

Rgds

Damon

Thanks for the information on payments Ted. So what you appear to be saying is that it pays me to put in a larger boiler, the only point of control being that the MCS installer would have had to size that boiler to the space and water heating requirement of the building. The more that I look at the whole thing and particularly having read the DECC paper on metering, http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/What%20we%20do/UK%20energy%20supply/Energy%20mix/Renewable%20energy/policy/renewableheat/1386-heat-metering-rhi-gastec-at-cre-ltd.pdf
the more it is apparent that sizing the system to the requirement is the critical point.
After that it seems to me that metering is irrelevant for the purposes of RHI and an expensive control, provided that, and it is a very big provision, any fossil-fuelled boiler is removed from the system. There is never any easy way to stamp out fraud and an element of trust has to be used. Even with metering in place there is little to prevent an unscrupulous person using fossil fuels to provide the heat that has gone through the meter: however the cost of wood gasification boilers being what they are, would surely make anyone think twice about installing one just to defraud the taxpayer.

I do have sympathy with DECC on this one but the Government have made a commitment to the RHI and will have to make the best of it. I suggest rigorous SAP calculations with greater emphasis on insulation, no metering and a quarterly declaration from the person in receipt of the RHI that the system is still in use - mis-declaration becoming a criminal offence - is the best approach. If, as is being suggested, there is a requirement for annual inspection/service of the system by an MCS installer this is backed up by annual audit. To prevent oversizing and consequent waste of heat, the RHI payment should be based upon the SAP calculation and NOT on the size of the installed boiler.

They need to MCS at the time of installation.

Ted, I thought they would need to be MCS accredited at the time of commissioning. Putting an empty shell of a PV system on a roof is not installation surely?

MCS do have a 'method' that allows someone who is not yet accredited to perform an installation, get it inspected by an MCS assessor, correct any mistakes, gain their installer accreditation and then re-commission the system in order for it to be eligible as an MCS certified system. But this is only allowed once for any particular installer.

Parts of works are allowed to be carried out, on a formal sub-contract basis, by less-skilled labour, but this must be supervised by a fully accredited MCS installer.

For the RHI the transitional arrangements apply to eligible installations commissioned on or after 15th July 2009.

For MCS systems, i.e. systems up to 45kWth capacity, the approach is defined as:

• Provided that the renewable heating product has MCS certified or equivalent status at the time the scheme starts, the product will be eligible for support under the RHI.

• The installer of the product needs to have been MCS certified or equivalent at the time of the installation of the product. It will not be possible for transitional installations, which have not used MCS installers to be retrospectively approved by MCS and such installations will not be eligible for the RHI.

(DECC RHI p86)

and

At the smaller scale, only MCS or equivalent certified equipment, which is installed by MCS or equivalent certified installers, will be eligible for support under the RHI. There is a risk that installers could breach the conditions of the scheme, for example, by incorrectly declaring that the equipment they’ve installed meets the eligibility requirements, which could mean the customer is not eligible for RHI support.

(DECC RHI p73)

and this is from the draft legislation for RHI:

MCS certification for microgeneration heating equipment

13. The requirements of this regulation are that the plant for which accreditation is being sought is certified under the MCS and its installer was certified under MCS at the time of installation.

The legislation generally uses the term "installation" as a noun, referring to the system and "commissioned" as a verb.

“commissioned” means, in relation to an eligible installation, the completion of such procedures and tests as constitute, at the time they are undertaken, the usual industry standards and practices for commissioning that type of eligible installation in order to demonstrate it is capable of operating and delivering heat to the premises or process for which it was installed;

Posted By: tedMCS do have a 'method' that allows someone who is not yet accredited to perform an installation, get it inspected by an MCS assessor, correct any mistakes, gain their installer accreditation and then re-commission the system in order for it to be eligible as an MCS certified system. But this is only allowed once for any particular installer.

OK, so what if an installer was not MCS accredited and from 15th July 2009 has carried out many heat pump installations but now becomes accredited in 2011. Can he then retrospectively re-visit, re-commission, sign off, or sumbit whatever paperwork is neccessary to meet the criteria for future RHI payments. Hope this is the case or there are going to be a lot of p----d off and disallusioned installers out there!

Dantenz, assuming the systems have been commissioned (in accordance with the definition I posted earlier) then they will not be eligible for RHI if the installer was not MCS accredited at that time.

And, as I said, the MCS re-commissioning 'trick' can only be performed once by any installer - not multiple times. This doc on the MCS website explains how it works - http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/admin/documents/Process%20for%20installation%20used%20for%20mcs%20assessment%2026-03-2010%20Final.pdf

OFGEM will doubtless be on the lookout for any installations that have dates on paperwork that don't all tie up.

The original RHI consultation paper contained clear information on how the transitional period would be handled. That required that all installs, up to the MCS capacity limit of 45kWth, were MCS certified.

This is not an answer to Jame's post - I just thought it might be helpful to post the information given to me by Q-Gen (our ASHP supplier) today as it seems to spell things out clearly.

The RHI has now been split into two distinct phases:

Phase 1 - July 2011

* Non-domestic installations only.
For commercial installs since 15th July 2009
Tariff will be paid quarterly for 20-year duration (Tariffs have been announced for commercial installations)
Does not include air source heat pumps at this stage (See "Other Points" below)
The commercial arena is seen as a fast win. It currently contributes 38% of the UK's carbon emissions.
* Domestic Installations will receive a Renewable Heat Premium Payment but must meet certain criteria.
Ă‚ÂŁ850 per unit for Air Source to subsidise installation cost.
Ă‚ÂŁ1250 per unit for Ground Source to subsidise installation cost.
In return for these payments, participants will be asked to provide feedback on how the equipment works in practice and may be asked by Ofgem to have their installation inspected. This is aimed at boosting confidence in the technology and to help the industry better understand how to maximise performance.
Eligible installations will be
- Since 15th July 2009
- In houses previously using Gas or other fossil fuels
- Homes demonstrating they are well insulated through an Energy Performance Certificate
- Heat pumps must have a COP of above 2.9 (Those supplied by Q-Gen are all above this level)
- Installation and equipment must be MCS accredited (Q-Gen installations are all MCS accredited)


Phase 2 - October 2012


* This will provide long-term tariff support for the domestic sector. The timing is expected to coincide with the introduction of the Green Deal for Homes (Aimed at making homes better insulated & more energy efficient)
* People in receipt of the Renewable Heat Premium Payment will still be able to receive long term RHI support once this is introduced
* In the second phase, DECC will also consider introducing support for a number of other technologies and fuels which are not supported from the outset.


Other Points

* The RHI will be funded directly through general Government Spending. Ă‚ÂŁ860m has been earmarked. The RHI will not be funded through a levy as previously proposed.
* Ofgem will govern the RHI
* Heat usage will be metered, not "deemed" as initially proposed. We await further detail about how this will operate in a domestic setting.
* England, Scotland and Wales will be covered by the RHI
* "Domestic Installation" is defined as "those where a renewable heating installation serves a single private residential dwelling only. This does not include multiple residential dwellings served by one renewable heating installation (e.g. district heating) nor single residential
dwellings which have been significantly adapted for non-residential use. For example, a house where someone works or runs a business from home would be considered domestic whereas a house converted to be a shop or bed & breakfast would be considered non-domestic and could receive RHI support. If a company, private landlord or registered social landlord installs single renewable heating units, in one or multiple residential dwellings, this will constitute a domestic installation and will not be able to get support through the RHI tariffs from the outset."
* With regard to Air Source Heat Pumps, DECC state, "Air source heat pumps will not be supported from the outset, as more work is needed to better understand the costs associated with the technology and, for air to air heat pumps, we have not yet developed a means of measuring direct air heating, as we have for water and steam. Subject to the successful conclusion of the work and affordability, we will look to extend eligibility for air to water source heat pumps from 2012."
* The expected tariff rates for domestic installations are yet to be announced.

Your (MCS approved) heat meter.

PS. Can I have a guided tour?!

Posted By: HairlocksI am about to start building. The company who are going to go the M&E are MCS accredited for PV panels, but have not got MCS accredited for Solar Thermal. Do I need to push them to get this before they do my install ET Panels, or can they retrospectivily certifiy it.

I didn't think that RHI was available for new build only retro-fit or refurbishment. Surely building regs. & CSH take care of the new build sector; is this the case?

Posted By: tonyIs that relevant? Why shouldn't new build get RHI as well?

As relevant in as much as achieving CSH level 5 & 6 will mean that a heat pump will have to be fitted in place of a boiler regardless of whether gas is available or not. So, rewarding with RHI funding for something that is compulsary doesn't make any sense.

So what is the procedure for claiming a payment?

I have installed a ASHP and solar thermal, and seem to meet the criteria. When and how do i claim the sweetner?

RR

I should hope that they will force the use, they are not that costly. But why to a tank. A simple thermostat diverted could dump any excess heat to the atmosphere, then they would wish they had gone for a deemed amount.

If the kWh is derived from the mass flow and the temperature difference, a lot of mass raised by a little can use the same amount of energy. Almost totally useless if you raise water from say 8 to 10 C, but if you do a lot of it then you can still claim your RHI. So is there going to be a cap on it either by system size or minimum temperature?