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Heating and cooling: Ways to reduce condensation in the home : a list

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      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2011
     
    What a dehumidifier does:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2011
     
    Hack your fridge. Pipe the defrost water to a drain instead of letting the fridge re-evaporate it.

    (No I'm not saying it's worth doing. I am just saying it could be done.)
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     
    A quick update but a few weeks later than I thought.
    For those of you who were interested I have just order the new DG unit of for my back door. 1m by 0.64m, 20mm gap with 4mm toughened glass, gnats under £40. Could have had K glass and would have been about 15 quid more. Asked about argon filled and the man said, leaks out after 3 or 4 years anyway, not worth it except to get past the BCO.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     
    U-value (Uw and Ug)?

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaAsked about argon filled and the man said, leaks out after 3 or 4 years anyway, not worth it except to get past the BCO.

    Hmm, does that mean there's a big conspiracy? Or is it an indication to use a different glass merchant?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     
    If gas can leak out then air can leak in and with it water vapour, I wonder why they are called sealed double glazed units?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     
    Damon
    Know idea what the U-Value is, can look it up as it is a standard make up for a window (2.8W/m^2K), could have gone better but it hardly seemed worth going triple glazing. I am not after the ultimate, just something better than a single pane I have in. Going to change the ply panel to a double one with some mineral wool put in it while I do it. An area that is often forgotten.

    DJH
    It was me that brought the subject up with him and he said it was the rep that told him as they do not make gas filled on site. Asked how one can check if it is gas filled and he said there is a meter but they are not very accurate.
    having dealt with many suppliers in many different fields over the last 30 years in manufacturing I can generally tell which ones are good or bad, though can get caught out sometimes.
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     
    Hi ST
    I'm suprised you stopped at regular DG glass. The argon + low e + warm edge is so much better technically than that. I can see there's an unknown long term issue with argon escaping - but the low e will remain.
    The marginal cost increase of the best glass over the cheapest gives the best glass quite a quick payback.
    The BFRC window rating equation:
    http://www.defra.gov.uk/sustainable/government/advice/public/buying/products/construction/documents/bfrc-guidance-note.pdf
    gives the power loss due to the U value (ignore solar gain and air infiltration) as 68.5KWh per year per U. Obviously, this makes UK assumptions about where you live, and how warm your house is. Most people in the UK after an improved glass of U=2.8 to U=1.2, would save 68.5*1.6 KWh of heat energy per year per m^2.
    At 5p/KWh heat (after effiency losses), thats £5.48 saving per year per m^2 of better glass.
    The U=1.2 glass can be got for £68 per m^2 - that gives a payback of 12.4 years even if you have good old DG that you just throw away.
    Where else can you get that sort of payback, without a grant or FIT/RHI ? *

    For me, it worked out a lot better than replacing my old boiler (stated effy = 0.78 to stated effy = 0.93) at £3000 I get a payback of 36 years. I will probably do even this eventually, but despite BG insistance, it should actually be low down on my list of priorities (it's even a worse return on investment than external wall insulation on our already cavity filled house)

    * Ok, assume loft & obvious cavity walls sorted. :-)
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     
    People, see here...

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=6511

    Short memories you lot! Supposed to happen only to the aged, so act your ages!!:updown:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 2nd 2011
     
    Rob
    I got the place up for sale and trend here is to replace the windows as soon as someone new moves in, and as I now have my total load down to 500W, that included water, light, refrigeration, cooking, entertainment, really can't see the point. Boor is a bit crooked so may be changing that in future anyway. Should have done it before the winter but but was busy. I agree that if I was replacing everything again I would go for Low e, but as using old frames I could not easily go triple, which is probably the better way. Still as the door is about a fifth of the wall area it will be interesting to see what 40 quid does.
    Loft has loads in it and no condensation issues that I can detect at moment and I can still store stuff up there, got some temp sensor dotted all over the place so shall see what the data shows when I get around to it, have some data from last couple of years. What I can say is that the storage heater (no gas here) is now down to 2 on the input and currently closed on the output, quite warm here at moment. Volume is about 170 m^3.

    Joiner
    I remember that thread and remember that I did not contribute to it. :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2011
     
    -Joiner
    Oh no ...
    My wife calls me an eco-bore. And I see the glazed look in people's eyes at work when I talk about flying less. And now here too...

    :-)
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2011
     
    :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2011
     
    Rob
    Just for a giggle in conversation I see how quick I can get from football (something I dislike) to Energy, usually less than a minute. The flip side is justifying Formula 1 (something I like) as a development platform for future generations of vehicles, usually about 15 seconds.
    :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2011
     
    What seems like a well informed discussion of argon fill etc here -> http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/double-glazing-advice-wtd-any-window-fitters-on-here

    "Argon will leak from polysulphide sealed units, but will stay in silicone sealed units."

    Ok, back to F1...
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2011
     
    Not really a DG thread, but hey - I found out how to get into our last 5 uPVC window panes, which are 4:20:4 DG U=2.8. I was a bit worried I wouldn't give a decent quote for just 2.4m^2 total, but nope, I got two quotes:
    U=1.2 2G 4:20:4 Planitherm Total+ Argon fill warm edge £60/m^2
    U=0.7 3G 4:8:4:8:4 2off Planitherm Total+ Krypton fill warm edge £180/m^2
    (figs include VAT but not delivery (£90)).

    for 2G U=1.2, my marginal improvement on what we have is about £38 per deltaU per m^2, 11year payback
    for 3G U=0.7, my marginal improvement on the 2G U=1.2 above is £360 per deltaU per m^2
    100mm EWI, in contrast, would drop our CWI wall from U=0.6 to U=0.16, marginal improvement £230/deltaU.m^2

    Notice how I didn't include paybacks on the 3G or EWI ? Gas is too cheap. Insulating should be more cost effective than burning things. If I were in charge, things would be different :devil:

    Should I go 2G or 3G?
    I think I'll go 3G on the regular windows, as they'll last "forever", and it's interesting!. Not so sure about the patio doors - I'm a bit worried about the extra weight. The doors are fine, nothing special though, but do get a lot of slamming in the summer by the kids. If ever we get around to EWIing, that'll last longer than the 2G-converted-3G patio door would, and is more cost effective.

    Can I mention the company.... ? Same one I used last time, am impressed with them. No I don't have shares/work for/get kickback for adverts ! Man up RobL, just do it !

    http://www.sggs.com/SolaGlas/Contact%20Us/Affiliates_Solaglas/South_East/Introduction.asp
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2011
     
    Well that's handy: they have branch just down the road from me! B^>

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeFeb 8th 2011 edited
     
    Thought i'd do a quick collection of the info offered.

    Key areas are the bathroom and kitchen.
    Use lids when boiling/simmering water/food
    Close doors when cooking/showering/bathing to keep the water vapour in the room
    brush of as much water as possible down before toweling
    Use a window squeegy to get excess water of shower wall/surround once finished( also help with limescale staining)
    Use extractors fans whilst cooking/showering
    or open a window in these rooms whilst doing the above
    Wipe any condensation off windows etc each morning with a cloth and dry outside
    Dont dry washing indoor unless you have to.
    close the toilet lid ?
    do use :
    Ventilation
    Thermal blinds
    Pressure cookers
    MHRV/whole house HRV
    Built in wardrobes often get condensation in the back of them.
    ensure that all internal surface temperatures are above the dewpoint for the relative humidity in the house
    Average source, break down -
    45% from showers, 35% from drying clothes, 13% from cooking, 7% from breathing/sweating
    Improve/upgrade you windows
  18.  
    Increase the timer setting on the shower room fan (how long it keeps extracting once the light is off).
    This has seemed to make a big difference this year.
    • CommentAuthormands
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2011 edited
     
    Is there a don't list - I noticed one of these (Bath in the bedroom) on Michael Portilo's Great British Railway Journeys in a hotel. I think you would be asking for water running down the windows and emulsion peeling off the wall!
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2011
     
    A lot of this thread was a mystery to me while we lived in a 1970s house with cavity wall insulation.

    Now, while our eco-refurb of our new home completes, we are renting an end of terrace house with solid walls, old metal-framed double glazing, and no insulation apart from the roof. Suddenly I am witnessing the things people describe. We have to keep wardrobes open to prevent the clothes getting soggy. There is dew on the window frames. The bathroom paint is peeling. Moisture pours down the toilet walls. Whatever the thermometer says, draughts and a low radiant temperature ensure that I shiver if I don't wear a down vest .

    At last I begin to understand why people go on about this subject. They live in houses like this one.
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2012 edited
     
    A Brief Guide to Mold, Moisture, and Your Home
    Moisture and Mold Prevention and Control Tips
    http://www.epa.gov/mold/preventionandcontrol.html

    http://www.epa.gov/mold/moldguide.html

    10 things you should know about mold
    http://www.epa.gov/mold/moldresources.html
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2012 edited
     
    Glad you've resurrected this James. I've recently had cause to look at this in more detail . A decent publication here http://www.norwich.gov.uk/Housing/HousingInformationAndAdvice/documents/Condensationanddamp.pdf
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2012 edited
     
    I think one of the underlying problem in my own situation is we have and are use to lower temperatures in our home ,18-19 deg C at central landing thermostat. so cold north walls more like 15-16 C.
    bit of a catch 22 when you're a fruggle energy saver
  24.  
    Yes, but low temperatures are good if you maintain the heating and not just blast it in short bursts.

    I keep my house at 19 deg between 6.30am and 10.30pm. I do get some condensation but given that I have 3 young kids and uninsulated solid walls its not too bad
  25.  
    Compartmentalise! Try to keep the vapour in the room in which you generate it, and then scavenge that room, pref with a mech extract fan.
  26.  
    Agree, Can you tell my wife please
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: Mike George given that I have 3 young kids and uninsulated solid walls its not too bad

    same here. the estates 'no fines' and most have problem
    It's more a case of not needing any heating rather than short burst, its not really come on at all so far this year (other than wood stove in lounge)
    though I think I may need to leave it on at a low return temp if it get bad again (just got my PV FIT payment so I'll upgrade my G rate boiler to a little condensing one, which should improve thing also).

    Nick, I agree "keep that bloody bathroom door shut !" differcult with younger children though
    I've just fitted small mhrv to try to redirect the flow of air from the cold to the warm side of the house ,
    as the extract only in the (warm side) bathroom didnt have much effect.
    more detail here.
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=9740&page=1#Item_26
  28.  
    ''Nick, I agree "keep that bloody bathroom door shut !" differcult with younger children though''

    Rising butts? Fire-door closer?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2012
     
    Posted By: Nick ParsonsRising butts
    How I usually get off the can :wink:
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2012
     
    Surely if you have to resort to wiping windows down in the morning and drying the cloth outside and the other palavers, it suggests there is some fundamental problem with the building design and/or use?

    A modest amount of condensation is to be expected in bathrooms and kitchens, but I don't think it should have to so severely restrict your behaviour. Something is wrong if you have to worry about keeping a lid on a saucepan I think.

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