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General: Softwood or Hardwood (Idigbo) windows

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1 to 21 of 21

  1.  
    • CommentAuthorHairlocks
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2011
     
    I have a couple of quotes from a local joiner via my house builder for wooden windows. One is softwood, and I can just about afford (I am really streaching myself too much) and another quote for a bit more using Idigbo hardwood, as I was a bit concerned about the lenght of time the softwood would last.

    Is there anything I can do to the spec of the softwood windows to improve there life. The joiner sources his wood from http://devonhardwoods.ltd.uk but the Idigbo is not FSC but is Forestforever certified (If that actually means anything).

    I really want windows that will last as long as possible, and not warp, as we are building our forever house, so will live in it for the 40+ years. but the banks will only lend me so much money.

    What would you do?
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011 edited
     
    It's another aspect of "sustainable" I suppose.
    Idigbo is a very rare tropical hardwood. Much if it is illegally logged. There is no such things as sustainable Idigbo.
    Also connections with bushmeat trade in Africa etc etc. It's a complex subject.

    Best (only?) tropical hardwood for concience is probably FSC Sapele.
    Have you compared price for that?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011
     
    Make sure your softwood is a redwood. If the joiner is any good it will be. If it isn't get a different joiner.

    Make sure you paint the wood with a genuinely breathable paint. I would only use real linseed oil paint from the Swedish Allback, as supplied by Holkham Paints. Modern alkyd resin paints are the principle cause of wooden windows rotting.

    Your windows will then outlive you. (Even if you are very young.)

    Certification of tropical hardwoods is not at all meaningful - there is so much corruption. Just don't touch it.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011
     
    Sapele is a superior wood to Idigbo, which is rubbish, quite apart from its (often) questionable sources. In terms of the overall cost of the sapele vs idigbo, it'll be marginal.

    Incidentally, it's my understanding that the 'Forest Forever' scheme started as a response to the revelations of corruption within the FSC "accreditation" labelling, introducing regular auditing of timber sourcing back to forest of origin in order to reassure importers and get some credibility back into the FSC label.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011
     
    You could also try looking at wooden windows from engineered softwood. The inner laminations are finger jointed from lower grade (knotty), softwood and "topped off", faced, with top grade clear redwood. The probability of warping or twisting is reduced almost to zero and advanced technical opening sashes are easily available.
    Mike
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011
     
    BTW re Idigbo; Be wary of other names. The commercial timber business is not averse to re-naming stuff they think may have a problem. For Idigbo, read framire, emeri, black afara, bajii, bajee, all depending on its source. It is also susceptible to iron stain.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011
     
    And it can warp like you wouldn't believe! Hate the stuff with a vengeance. :devil:
    • CommentAuthorHairlocks
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011
     
    I have been told Sapele is 45% more expensive than Idigbo. Currently the architect has specified hardwood cills of the softwood windows. currently priced as idigbo, shoul I change the cills to redwood?

    Does the redwood need painting or could I just use the maintenance lineseed oil and have a natural redwood finish?
    • CommentAuthorHairlocks
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011
     
    Posted By: JoinerAnd it can warp like you wouldn't believe! Hate the stuff with a vengeance.:devil:" alt=":devil:" src="https:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/devil.gif" >


    Is that idigbo or softwood. does redwood have that problem?
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011
     
    Idigbo. The first time I used it at someone's insistence I ended up with 88-quid's-worth of firewood. Turned down a barn conversion because they were insisting on the stuff, including the stairs. Only used it once since then, and then for a customer who was prepared to take the risk by paying for the timber himself, and than found himself with two 10' lengths of 4 x 2 that had warped in BOTH planes, necessitating a re-ordering of the same sections. He was lucky that the merchant accepted them back, and then only becuase they were less than a week in my workshop.

    As for the 45% difference in price, it was more like 15% the last time I looked, but that was eighteen months ago. However, that said, within the OVERALL costs involed in making a window, the cost of the wood is (usually) the smallest element (excepting furniture) - unless you go for kiln-dried oak - compared to glazing, labour in making and fitting.

    Given a choice I'd go for oak every time, and if softwood then Douglas fir without exception. The only "cheaper" hardwood option I'd go for would be sapele, which is a lovely wood to work with and looks great, as long as you don't mind the "colour".

    These are sapele. 24 mm gas-filled units.

    [IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/28ur1c.jpg[/IMG]

    [IMG]http://i41.tinypic.com/288a2q9.jpg[/IMG]
    •  
      CommentAuthorrichy
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2011
     
    I make wooden windows and there are some fancy prices out there which don't reflect the true cost of making redwood windows, shop around! The price of Oak scare a lot of people including me, but it is best left oiled. Idigbo is junk, sold as poor mans oak, Sapele, Luann and Brazillian Mahogany is supposedly durable, but I'm repairing frames which are 20 yrs old and knackered.

    Biff is correct, it's the finish which kills a lot of frames and gloss paint is the worst!
  12.  
    What is used here is engineered softwood imported from some other part of eastern Europe (Poland or the Ukraine I think) Its a lamination of 3 sections of softwood made up into 6M ? lengths. These blanks are purchased for machining into windows made to size. The blanks section looks to be the same type as used by Albo (CZ). There are several small firms here doing windows and they all use the same blanks. They can be fitted with 2G or 3G.
    I would have thought similar opportunities would exist in the UK
    Peter
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2011
     
    Peter - I'm sure there are others, but the only alternative to the traditional woods used for joinery in the UK (and they're limited by supply - the Yanks just seem to walk to the corner for whatever they want) that I know of is accoya...

    http://www.accoya.com/

    A bog-standard "pine" window will last for a considerable time (and "considerable" is relative and wholly dependant on regular maintenance) if it's not neglected - and that's the problem here, property generally isn't maintained as it should be, but done on an ad hoc basis when things start dropping off or we get worried about what the neighbour's think.

    I've made cheap "pine" windows that are still in good nick now, 19 years later, but they had oak cills and all cut ends were treated with wood hardener. They've also been rubbed down and painted every three years - with gloss paint! But then, they were people who couldn't afford much. Still proud of their house though.

    Unless it's a conservation job, you make windows with whatever the customer can afford and tell them what to expect during the discussion of the options on the survey. As a tradesman, if you don't want to do what they're insisting on, then you walk away.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2011
     
    Posted By: Joiner - I'm sure there are others, but the only alternative to the traditional woods used for joinery in the UK (and they're limited by supply - the Yanks just seem to walk to the corner for whatever they want) that I know of is accoya...

    I think what PIH is on about Joiner is the same stuff I mentioned in my post. It's not Accoya, it is as Peter said simply a core of three or four finger jointed laminations capped, with usually clear grade faces. The stability of the main window sections is excellent and the clear face lends itself to nice natural, or stained finish. This stuff has been used for years in Germany for eg tilt/turn windows. Without going down the road of the very technical Accoya, its a simple solution to the poor, often unstable, grade through and through cut solid softwood used by most British window manufacturers. I did however know of one UK window manufacturer who was using the stuff.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2011
     
    owlman - yup, realised the difference, but I was just saying that I wasn't familiar with the stuff you mentioned. :bigsmile:

    Accoya is expensive and (the last time I looked) not available in very practical sections, being more suitable for the system manufacturers making upvc windows in wood - there's one in the West Midlands somewhere.

    Any idea what the stuff you're referring to is called?
  16.  
    Just as a reference point the windows made up here from the laminated softwood with 3g low e coating argon filled at 4-9-4-9-4, tilt and turn, inward opening (standard here) vary between 260GPB and 400GBP / M2 plus VAT for a single light frame. The price varies according to size, the larger the glass area the cheaper the M2 price.
    Then transport to UK........
    Peter
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2011
     
    There's no real reason why a pine window, painted with a vapour permeable paint, can't last a couple of centuries. There are a great many Victorian and earlier windows still functioning just fine.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2011
     
    Joiner asked: "Any idea what the stuff you're referring to is called?"

    I think what they're talking about is glulam. There are lots of other laminated products using varying sizes of veneers or strands; chapter 11 of http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id=100&header_id=p has a description of the differences.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2011
     
    Posted By: Joiner Any idea what the stuff you're referring to is called.

    I'm not aware of any specific or even generic name. It's just laminated wood. Go into any German Bau Markt for instance and all the windows are made from it. Knowing the Germans I guess it is in standardised sections to suit tilt/turn spindle/CNC cutters. Most likely though the mills, probably in the Scandinavian or Baltic states make it to order. I'll try and dig out the stuff from the UK firm that was making windows from it. As an aside, I specced windows from it for a prospective clients nice new build. In the end they went for bog standard stuff and had the temerity to call me in some time later to solve the problem of sashes that, once opened could only be closed with great difficulty. That was a time for the smug smile and, " told you so".
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2011
     
    Hairlocks, before you buy home made windows from anyone of less calibre than biff Vernon or Joiner, try Scandinavian-style factory made triple glazed fully finished windows custom made to your size and design, from the likes of Russell timbertech for £235/m2.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 29th 2011
     
    :bigsmile: Thank you. That was unexpected.

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