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Renewable Energy: Proven 35-2

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthoridp
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2011
     
    I own three Proven 35-2 turbines - and have spent the day trying to figure out what's going on. Here is what I've found out so far -
    It looks like Proven is going to be bought over this week (deadline for offers on Wednesday). But by who or what the terms of the sale will be I don't know.
    VG energy know how to fix the turbines, as it was one of their customers turbines that had the latest failure. They had been in discussion with Proven for some time about how to repair the turbines, either broken or not. From what I can gather the repair involves strengthening the drive shaft where it is prone to breaking due to metal fatigue. It seems that all the turbines of this size will have the same problem eventually after several months use depending on location, wind , etc. Vg energy estimate the cost of the repair at £100-1500 per turbine.
    I've been trying to find out about the warranty. As Proven are in receivership the warranty might be void. I talked to 'REAL Assurance' who said that a condition of Proven's membership is to have an insurance policy on the warranty so customers are covered in this eventuallity. I'm not sure that is in place-but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
    I also talked to MCS today. They say that the turbines are maintaining their MCS accreditation at the moment, but that that might change quite soon depending on the outcome of a review by them of the design and the current breakages. New customers (without turbines erected/operational) might then lose the FIT status. Existing customers with turbines installed/operational already will maintain the FIT status.
    KPMG don't seem to know much -although I think they're focussing on selling up quickly rather than on what people like me want to know.
    Proven's website is up and running again.
    That's it for now!
    • CommentAuthoridp
    • CommentTimeSep 23rd 2011
     
    I should have written £1000-1500 last post for repair cost estimate.
    KPMG have set a date of 27/9/11 for closure of bidding -so we should find out after that who has bought what.
    Real assurance have now said that Manufacturers do not have to insure their warranties -only installers -so It looks like the warranty will be out the window.
    My insurance company won't pay out for loss of income as it is a manufacturers recall/defect.
    It feels like as the end users we are being left to pay for this ourselves and lose or warranty into the bargain.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2011
     
    Proven P-35s were deleted from the MCS approved product list yesterday. I wonder if MCS will provide a detailed explanation as to why. The P11 is still listed.
  4.  
    The news section of the MCS website says "MCS today announces that the certification of the both the P35 and the P35-2 has been suspended, pending further information on the recent failures it has experienced". So that's suspended rather than deleted.

    You can read its (far from illuminating) Q&A here: http://www.microgenerationcertification.org/news
    • CommentAuthorLuckyguy
    • CommentTimeOct 10th 2011
     
    Anyone hear anymore info?
    Who the buyer is? Anybody with any other info on the fail, pictures etc.
    • CommentAuthoridp
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
     
    I have just heard that Kingspan - the insulation company- have bought Proven. I'm going to phone them right now to find out more.
    Icon Energy have also gone under!
    I heard that one of the failures was in Scotland during the gales a few weeks ago. The whole front section sheared off with the blades attached and fell to the ground some distance from the turbine tower. The break was through the driveshaft where the webs/braces are welded on near where it meets the tower.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
     
    I have some sympathy with the predicament these small wind turbine companies find themselves in. They are trying to produce a product that needs to have a very high reliability, yet I doubt that many of them have the means to do extensive reliability testing. Its inevitable that users will end up being their testers.

    I'm frankly amazed that blade and shaft failures aren't more common based on that failure mode description. Having witnessed the reliability test regimes applied to helicopter rotors, and seen just how tough it is to make the things last for a fraction of the operating life a wind turbine is expected to have, I find it pretty incredible that any of these small companies are prepared to take the risk involved.

    The description above of the failure in Scotland sounds as if there are weldments on the drive shaft, which seems an astonishingly difficult manufacturing technique to use for a component exposed to such a harsh operating fatigue environment. I take my hat off to a company who can make a welded shaft and be assured that the welds are of high integrity and that the heat affected zone has been adequately treated post-welding to ensure adequate strength and resistance to failure under long duration, high cyclic load conditions.
    • CommentAuthoridp
    • CommentTimeOct 13th 2011
     
    Kingspan Solar in Northern Ireland seem to be dealing with the Proven issues -although they don't know much about it at the moment. Telephone 028 3836 4500.
    They are not retaining warranties for any of the Proven turbines and are stopping production of the 35-2 indefinately. I asked about who was going to come up with a fix for existing 35-2 customers -but they have no idea at the moment.
    http://www.clickgreen.org.uk/news/national-news/122646-defunct-proven-energy-taken-over-by-kingspan.html
    • CommentAuthoridp
    • CommentTimeOct 22nd 2011
     
    VG Energy have now had a meeting with Kingspan regarding a fix for the 35-2 turbines. Kingspan seem to be okay about letting VG Energy work on a solution -which is great. VG have to work on getting a design proposal for the repairs approved by the various regulatory bodies, then if that all goes smoothly they have to plan how to schedule and implement the alterations to a lot of 35-2's. The approval process is likely to take a few more weeks as far as I can gather, and the repair process probably several months given the number of turbines to repair.
    I've also talked to an Engineer/Energy Consultant who has a method of testing turbines in-situ to prove one way or the other if they actually have a defect within the drive shaft (which may well not be visible externally). He is using this method to prove to insurance companies and HSE that a particular turbine is not damaged and can therefore be operational. This is only really a short term solution as regular re-inspections are required in order to maintain evidence of integrity. But it works.
    • CommentAuthoridp
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    VG have done a deal with Xzeres, which makes sense as they need to keep selling a turbine of that kind of size. Xzeres and VG have also come up with a bracket/adapter so 35-2 towers can be fitted with a xzeres turbine head. The drawback is that it will cost about £30k to do that. I've realised that about two thirds of the total cost of my installation was the founds, towers, inverters, supply, etc. and about one third was the turbine heads. So in my worst case scenario, if I could finance it I could replace the turbine heads. But at £30k a pop I think it's beyond me.
    I'm please that VG are working on the 35-2 fix -as that is by far the best option.

    The Energy Consultant I talked to is called Bill Andrews from Cornwall. He works for himself as an Energy Consultant and has been involved with the purchase of a 35-2 for a community energy project for a village called South Wheatley. I talked to him for quite some time. He is a mechanical engineer with a former career in the aerospace industry and offshore oil industry. He is very intelligent, and has used his knowledge and experience to come up with a relatively simple way of testing the 35-2 turbine drive shafts in-situ via a cherry picker. By comparing an un-used 35-2 with one in the field he can compare test results to prove one way or the other whether there are internal stress cracks/defects within the drive shaft. He's tested his own community turbine, which has been operational for about 18 months with a 5,5m/s wind speed and found identical results to a new turbine -so therefore no problems so far. He has used that data to convince HSE locally and his insurance company to allow him to switch the turbine back on, with the proviso that he will need to make follow up checks at regular intervals. He views the testing as a short term solution to get the turbine back on, and is now working up a design for a permanent repair for the turbine.
    There is another guy that actually does the testing that charges £45 per hour. For me - as I'm in the Hebrides and he is in Cornwall-getting the test done is not really a viable option. I'd need somebody more local to me. I hope he won't mind that I've published his contact details below. My view is that the more we all know the better.
    Contact: Mr William (Bill) Andrews Phone Number.: 01566 781332
    ANDREWSWbaent@aol.com.
  11.  
    Hi,
    Given the instruction on the proven website to shut down the turbine is this enforceable and in what way. Driving around recently I still see many units chugging away. Many are in the middle of 50 acre fields with nothing to harm, but I have noticed some very close to a motorway seemingly shut down, I say that as I coulnt assess the wind as I went past.
    Cheers
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    I wonder what your insurance company would make of it if it failed and caused damage and you knew there was a risk of such a failure occuring?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011 edited
     
    Be even more interesting if a third party i.e. a consultant had OKed its use, would their insurance pay out to your insurance to pay out to you. Vicarious Liabilities I think.
  14.  
    Posted By: Mike (Up North)Hi,
    Given the instruction on the proven website to shut down the turbine is this enforceable and in what way. Driving around recently I still see many units chugging away. Many are in the middle of 50 acre fields with nothing to harm, but I have noticed some very close to a motorway seemingly shut down, I say that as I coulnt assess the wind as I went past.
    Cheers


    The two at the M4/M5 junction near Bristol have been shut down for some time.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    Presumably if you had had the turbine inspected and OK'ed to operate (by a "competent" person) and it then failed - one would surely look at the professional indemnity insurance of the "competent" person.
    BUT
    I don't think any/many installers have professional indemnity insurance only public and employers liability - if they had Prof. indemnity and they sold you a turbine on the basis of estimated yield and the turbine then under performed, you could claim as their professional advice was wrong. That's probably why they don't have it - too high a premium.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    The one near Redruth at the EA place has hardly ever run this year, I think it was the first one made and installed. £60k of our cash too.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    I've heard that sometimes planning permission for a turbine contains clauses that require the turbine to be taken down if it doesn't generate for a year. I wonder if any are technically in breech of their PP.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2011
     
    I think some just off the English coast were in technical breach a few years ago, but didn't come down.

    Planning consent and GPDOs mention taking generation (micro and not) equipment down as soon as it is no longer required, IIRC.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2011
     
    My planning consent requires the turbine to be taken down if it has been non-operational for over 6 months. However, it also says that this period can be extended subject to agreement with the planning authority. I should think they would be sympathetic the to Proven case whilst a solution is sought.

    You could otherwise turn the thing back on for a few minutes to restart the 6 months countdown! Says nothing about how long it has to be operational in any 6 month period.

    A separate condition requires the turbine to be decommissioned after 25 years "so derelict or obsolete structures do not proliferate in the countryside". If after 25 years it's still working it's not obsolete so we'll see!!!!
    Anyone reckon any of us will have 25 year old turbines?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2011
     
    Posted By: windy lambAnyone reckon any of us will have 25 year old turbines?


    A Proven run for 30 seconds every six months will only have done less than half an hour, so may be some of those arround.
    'One careful owner' anyone :bigsmile:
  21.  
    From my experience of NDT on WTG's you need to be very cautious and clear regarding results. We had a problem many moons ago with the LSS failing on a certain turbine. Some shafts actually passed the NDT examination and later also failed in the field. We actually carried out hardness testing as we thought the incorrect material had been used in manufacture. How is this chap testing? I only ask because I have done some myself a long time ago on fast jets?
    Gusty.
  22.  
    I have just read the earlier thread. Is he carrying out Eddy current do you know? How is this shaft constructed? Has it got welded flanges held with bolts etc? If so the results can be very missleading and tolerances can be adjusted. Check what insurance is in place before you jump in with both feet!!!
    I am sure he is a very good engineer though, just as all ex aerospace engineers are :wink::bigsmile:
    Gusty.
    • CommentAuthoridp
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2011
     
    The testing I mentioned before is ultra sonic testing. A reading can be taken from a new turbine shaft for comparison, then the owners turbine can be tested. If results are identical then the shaft is undamaged at that time. the end of the shaft can be accessed in situ at the opposite end from the blades.

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