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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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General: Should all new buildings be round?

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    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007
     
    The most energy efficient shape is round (or in my case hemispherical as I like to use the ground to keep me at a comfortable even temperature)

    Should all new green buildings be round? It is the shape with the maximum volume but the lowest surface area, and therefore the smallest heat losses.

    What do we think?
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007 edited
     
    First thought is practicality, what would spheres on such a massive scale be made of?
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007
     
    I have been working on a proposal for a partially hemispherical (part parabolic 'dougnut') covered segment with an open top ring for quite some time using hemispherical part-arc solar collectors (not parabolics): The arrangement seems to work well and got a fairly positive but simultaneously uncommital response from Communities yesterday with a pass-through to the Energy Ministry.

    However, pure hemispheres are difficult to construct and finish unless you don't need to care about the finishes (as is the case above). They also have higher initial embodied contents although, given that the surfaces are in compression for parabolics rather than hemispheres, they should have exceptionally long life spans and thus low annualised embodied contents: The trick would be to separate the external skin from replaceable internal elements.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007
     
    Mike

    On a large mass-produced scale, the least annualised embodied would seem to be (horror) reinforced concrete ribs with, if it can be found to work in the long term, panels made of limecrete. However, at the moment, limecrete isn't sufficiently proven.
  5.  
    Something like ASMET then?
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007
     
    ASMET..

    Doesn't stike a bell. What does ASMET stand for?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007
     
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007 edited
     
    • CommentAuthorBluemoon
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007
     
    Compromise with a geodesic dome. The triangles could be mass-produced in a variety of materials. But would the planners have kittens if you proposed one?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007
     
    New planning guidelines coming in they have to like anything that saves "carbon".
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2007
     
    Mike

    I couldn't tell from the decription what ASMET was about. Sounds intriguing but didn't, given the description, sound similar.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 27th 2007
     
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeSomething like ASMET then?
    Mike, we agree yet again - ASMET's ideal for u/ground shells, if full of cautions for any other uses. From http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=174&page=2:
    "Would asmet build homes like 'Bag End' in lord of the rings? If so there will be a large demand. Steveleigh did you get that! There must be lots of plots in the UK with Bag End potential."
    "It's the bilbocious future, man http://www.lordoftherings.net/legend/gallery"
    http://www.cv81pl.freeserve.co.uk/gardens/bilbo-baggins1.jpg
  13.  
    It has always accurd to me that with passive solar design, following the arc of the sun with an curved building to match would be very functional. For a subterranean house, a large eye sitting on the ground.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeOct 27th 2007 edited
     
    fostertom

    Can you give a link so that I can see what an ASMET house is?

    Jeff

    Yes, that is almost entirely the principle of the design mentioned using a part plane hemispherical line collector and arm at 1/2r. Good for 30% efficiency or so but, as the inner surface of the ring roof is tiled mirrors, the effective cost is significantly reduced and winter efficiency can be made the priority. As with the desription of ASMET in the link above, the project is open source and has been going for a few years though I'm reluctant to post the website address as it hasn't been updated, since about january from recollection, to include the part plane hemispherical collector modfications (originally the project started as just a ring parabolic form for minimum materials content using lateral earth pressures to modify the parabolic form to a more usable version)

    bluemoon

    If the principle of the design allows say 500-1000 years design life then mass production of the shell form is less of an issue if one can pre-fabricate the internal elements using pre-fabricated volumetrics: On a large scale (containg say 10+ residential units) the costs of fabrication of the shell form can be significantly reduced using rotating 'spiral' formers on a rail system. This reduces the cost of production on a mass scale. Planners within green belt areas that I have spoken to, rather than having kittens, would like to incorporate this form of construction into their town plans for post 2020 construction!
  15.  
    This is ASMET as a roofing material

    http://www.roofkrete.co.uk/
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 27th 2007
     
    Posted By: jonCan you give a link so that I can see what an ASMET house is?
    Several links in the last few posts. No pics of complete ASMET house - it's still just a prototype box inside a shed - links incl. video in the main ASMET thread.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2007
     
    Thanks Gents

    From reading Roofcrete's site, it appears to be a waterproofing system? What does ASMET stands for?

    No similarities to what we're up to (as far as I can tell).
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2007
     
    Read the threads linked to - it's all there.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2007 edited
     
    Tom

    I read the information. It appears to be a form of thin reinforced concrete. With an "alkaline cementitious matrix permanently prevents deeper rusting": Ordinary concrete also is an alkaline cementitious matrix: The impact of carbonation changes the matrix of the cementitious layers over time to allow delamination (and other deleterious effects also impact on the steel layers below)

    If I were to compare your ASMET folded structure to a thin wall concrete structure of the same relative scale as one of Peter Rice's, what would be the intrinsic difference apart from scale? Or, re-phrasing, what is new about the idea?

    Can anyone simply describe what ASMET is? The links are interesting but I cannot, at first glance, see what is new.
  20.  
    jon, I share your views. So far, there is much purported as to what can be achieved with ASMET, but nobody wants to tell us [in detail] what it is actually made from.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2007
     
    Mike, it's finely graded rock/sand aggregates, presumably silicates, and some kind of OPC/additives. Explain why it's necessary to know more? cos John Manniex isn't going to tell us!
  22.  
    Mainly because I am very cynical about anything which is kept secret, but also because understanding the material composition would allow us to assess what is different about it that gives it the amazing properties purported. Presumably everthing about it is protected by IPR and patents so why won't John tell us what it is?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2007
     
    I see - also those other guys who won't tell you what you need to know! Do you regard ASMET's performance as extraordinary, given the very high steel content and the v gd bonding and strength that's possible when the aggregate grading is done really well? The latter is I think John's main secret - he's just got the grading down pat. He won't say but my guess is he's an aggregate boffin - no coincident that the China Clay pits industry is right on his doorstep. Some of his aggregate I know is an otherwise useless China Clay by-product.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2007 edited
     
    Mike/Tom

    This worries me too. The techo speak quotes (I realise it isn't yours Tom) sounds very dubious: It sounds exacly like fine crushed agg mix concrete. Small agg concrete is great for folded panels with low covers providing you want low quantities but don't care too much about durability. The phrase "alkaline cementitious matrix permanently prevents deeper rusting" strikes me as unusual as does "apparently Roofkrete doesn’t display thermal expansion".

    If he won't tell people what it is then there's no chance whatsoever that anything will be built with it. If it's just what Tom describes above then it's been done before but low cover concretes have too low a durability relative to cost so, if it is ever built as an external structure, will prove to destroy itself by delamination spalling fairly quickly.

    If there is something new that really does allow "alkaline cementitious matrix permanently prevents deeper rusting" or "apparently Roofkrete doesn’t display thermal expansion" then perhaps he is being selfish by not patenting the invention?
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2007 edited
     
    Tom, I can see how ASMET works on a single plane [Roofcrete] but all buildings move, whether due to settlement, thermal expansion, moisture intake etc. I am sceptical about whether ASMET can withstand the movement associated with other integrated components. Maybe I am wrong in this, but when people are so secretive it is sometimes because divulging too much information would allow others to assess whether the claims are valid or not.

    I spoke with John a couple of months ago and he told me he has a trade background
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2007
     
    I tried to get a Polish eco-enthusiast venture capitalist/marketeer that I met to contact John Manniex to bring some reality and direction into this basically brilliant idea that's stalled. Don't think anything happened.

    Trade background - he says he's learnt everything he knows self-building a series of houses subsequently sold. I suspect there's more to it than that - many questions he just stonewalls - neither yes nor no.
    • CommentAuthorBluemoon
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2007
     
    The Small World Centre, currently under construction in Cardigan, isn't round but hexagonal, but it's a start.

    http://www.smallworld.org.uk/CBB.html
    • CommentAuthorsteveleigh
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2007 edited
     
    .
    • CommentAuthorsteveleigh
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2007
     
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2007
     
    Steve

    7mm thick on top of insulation? Would have to be very hard insulation. It sounds like a good product. However, the same thing could be achieved with fine wire mesh, small agg concrete and, say an SBR additive perhaps with additional plasticiser.

    There's no criticism of the product. Just a question as to why it is more environmentally beneficial, special or otherwise superior to any other specification I could use to achieve the same thing.

    I agree it is interesting. But I can't see why it is special.. or any more special than any similar mix that I could use.

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