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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    I noticed that in GBM recently a geothermal heat pump was mentioned

    THERE AINT NO SUCH THING!!

    This term is becoming more common and is incorrect in, we have talked about them before and agreed that it was an incorrect description.

    A heat pump uses solar energy, heat from the sun stored in the air, water or in the ground. They should not be described as geothermal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    They do of course get a small fraction from geothermal - heat rising from the core - something like 2W per m2 of surface - especially in winter, when nett solar replenishment has stopped or gone negative at the surface, and the GSHP is drawing entirely on u/ground stored or sourced heat, AKA freezing the subsoil. That effectively locally accelerates the constant, non-seasonal dissipation of core heat to atmosphere, creating a local temperature depression or 'vacuum' that sucks more of same in from surrounding ground. Under those circumstances, a GSHP may be getting as much as 5W/m2, 24/7, from geothermal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJSHarris
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    Depends where you stick the collector............

    I once went down a Cornish tin mine (when they were still working) and down at around 400 m or so it was like a sauna, pretty uncomfortable even wearing just an overall and little else. I'd guess that the temperature down there was 30 deg C plus.

    Even a few metres down in that neck of the woods you can get significant "geothermal" heat, although some of it is really nuclear (the granite has small amounts of nuclides and their decay warms the rock).
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    My book on renewable energy claims that at boundaries between plates there is an average of 300 mW/m^2 (0.3 x 10^-1 W.m^-2) , the Earth average is 60 mW/m^2 (0.06 x 10^-1 W.m^-2).
    Radioactive decay is is estimated at 5 x 10^20 J.a^-1
    So not sure where you have that thermometer.

    A lot depends on local geology. Around here here there is a lot of radioactive decay near the surface, but still tiny compared to the solar absorbed by the rocks. Though a lot of heat pump energy comes via water that has run off the surface and soaked into the ground. This increases the capture area immensely. Rainwater is very definitely solar energy. Though yesterday there was lots of rain and little sun!
  1.  
    As a general rule or thumb (ROT for the glossary!?) I have always thought that anywhere with a ground temperature over 20 deg. C would provide geothermal. over here we have geothermal springs where water is coming up to the surface at 30+ deg. C and there are many thermal spas and water adventure complexes running on geothermal sourced heat pumps (GeoSHP as a term???) where the energy is pulled from various depths from the surface down.

    I would agree however that geothermal is both over and mis used as a term and most (or all!) GSHP in the UK are going to be stored solar energy
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaEarth average is 60 mW/m^2
    As little as that? somewhere I have a map showing enormous differences even leaving aside hotspots like Iceland. Old rock masses like most of Africa v low; ocean beds v much higher; mixed geology like western Europe in between.

    Posted By: SteamyTeaa lot of heat pump energy comes via water that has run off the surface and soaked into the ground
    That only applies during the summer solar-replenishment phase; will actually be a ground-cooling mechanism in winter. In any case, does not widen the catchment area of solar collection.

    What may (or may not - it's a lottery) contribute greatly as prime source of heat collected by GSHP, is groundwater flow, either horizontal by mass flow, or vertical by water table rise and fall.
  2.  
    Posted By: tonyA heat pump uses solar energy, heat from the sun stored in the air, water or in the ground. They should not be described as geothermal.


    The more correct term is ground-exchange heat pump, or ground source heat pump - the former term for reversible systems (like mine) that do heating and cooling, the latter for heating-only systems (like most, if not all, of those sold in the UK).

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomThat only applies during the summer solar-replenishment phase; will actually be a ground-cooling mechanism in winter. In any case, does not widen the catchment area of solar collection.

    There is solar gain in other times/ways/places as well.
    Think where the rain predominately comes from, (in the UK, Canada's will be a USA import :wink:), after a few phase changes it falls as either rain, hail or snow. All ways it is energy transfer from the tropics to the higher latitudes, we would be, at 50-60N a lot colder without it. Convert from the Celsius to the Kelvin scale to get a true measure of it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaThere is solar gain in other times/ways/places as well.
    But not nett positive at night vs day, winter vs summer, temperate zones vs tropics. For UK, definitely nett negative, winter time. Whatever is gained winter daytime is more than lost by radiation to night sky.

    Posted By: SteamyTeaAll ways it is energy transfer from the tropics to the higher latitudes
    True, but only on a summer + winter nett basis. In winter alone, precipitation is cooling the ground - mostly falling @ well below the 10C av 2-3m deep u/ground temp.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomprecipitation is cooling the ground

    But not all of it. If you think of the SHC of water, and then how much falls as rain onto given a m^2 of ground, you can work out the energy transfer. This has to be against the backdrop of how a heat pump extracts energy from the ground. It uses a fluid that is cooled to around 0C (or 273K in real money), that fluid is then warmed slightly before it cools in the HP. Now as water hold more energy per unit mass than soil, as long as it is above 0C when it soaks in, more energy can be extracted at a higher rate from wet ground than dry ground even if the overall temperature is lower. Sounds odd, but it works.
  3.  
    Im willing to bet that an area of ground which has been rained on and is wet will lose its stored solar energy more quickly through evaporation etc, than a similar bit of ground that remains dry.
    If the energy is more easily available to the GSHP then it is also more available to be "lost" to the surrounding environment and will therefore dissipate quicker.

    Im talking over a period of days or weeks, you are shortening the grounds capacity as a heat battery.

    If the moisture was sealed inside the ground immediately around the GSHP circuit, the effects would be different, more beneficial...?

    presumably badgers dig their burrows below the frost line?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2011
     
    Posted By: bot de paille
    presumably badgers dig their burrows below the frost line?


    Heavier than air gas needed then :wink:
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