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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

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    • CommentAuthorrichardh
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2007
     
    We're just about to start a complete renovation of our early nineteenth century farmhouse in Perthshire - it's B listed (Scotland) so external insulation is not an option. We're looking to insulate floors, wall and ceiling (the lot!) in a manner that's as effective, environmentally sound, and space-efficient as possible. For the walls and roof we're looking at everything from the dreaded tri-iso to aerogels and various laminate boards and (of course) are seeing vastly conflicting advice and opinions - so can anyone point us at a good place to start with assessing the options, preferably before we crack completely and resort to the default ecooption of a steady buildup of cat fur, of which we have a plentiful supply... ;-)

    Thanks
    Richard
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2007
     
    Min 75 sprayed Hemcrete internally - pretty fair insulation but more importantly doesn't cut the thermal massiveness of the walls off from the interior.
  1.  
    It's late, so here's a stream of consciousness:

    I imagine your house is a sort of Georgian style foursquare building. If so, good, as a compact shape can be made quite warm.

    Walls: phenolic foam (e.g. from ebay) or celotex etc. Use the best high-tech insulants you can get: living space is money. Aerogel is not currently worth it IMO. Consider insulated coving/cornice (commercial polystrene or homemade) for the thermal bridge where wall joins ceiling. Remember to insulate window returns on all four sides. You may need longer/thinner windowledges. Consider returning a thin layer of insulation up interior walls where appropriate (tricky one this as you could lose a lot of floor space and you lose heat capacity to some extent). I personally would aim for a U value of .25 as this is the current "standard", but you have to decide for yourself, obviously.

    Try to buy the plasterboard in bulk and look for the best price. Try to seal the wall as best you can before you put the insulation up and ideally try to seal the insulation boards themselves and then the plasterboard. You want to have as many goes as possible at airtightness. Hopefully one of the layers will actually end up airtight. Use as few battens as possible: ideally none.

    Ceiling: lots of mineral wool (local classified ads?) Make sure you at least have one good layer completely over the joists as this actually has more effect than the layer between them, which loses heat through the timber itself. If replacing a top-floor ceiling, consider a layer of foam underneath the joists to give a lost frame. Insulate loft hatches with insulation boards.

    Floor: if solid, don't bother, just carpet. Ideally carpeting should have an airtight layer underneath that joins to the airtight layer in the wall with tape. If timber, draught seal the bottom with insulation boards and tape, or mylar or double-bubble if cheap (don't bother with multifoil). You may get a little condensation pooling at the bottom: so what. Put mineral wool in between the joists if you can, especially if you don't use insulation boards.

    Fenestration: less important, but if changing any glazing, try to go double glazed with soft coat, krypton fill and warm edge. That is if the fascists will let you! Alternatively: secondary glazing. It can be affordable to get inward opening double glazed windows from France and use these, but it would depend on many factors. Glazing changes in renovation are more for comfort in the vicinity of the window than reduced energy use.

    Can you put insulation boards on doors and cover with leather/baize? This could also be combined with an overlay for airtightness. I have never done this, but I think it would work and look quite good.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2007
     
    Posted By: passivhausfanWalls: phenolic foam (e.g. from ebay) or celotex etc
    Poor idea - last resort. In 10yrs time you'll be ripping it out to do it properly, as understanding of thermal massiveness spreads.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2007
     
    You may have already done this, but can't tell from the description:

    The first thing to do, if I were doing it, would be to look at what you have and then work out:

    1: For each component (windows, doors, walls, roof, floor), what do you have and what area of that is exposed
    2: For each component find out what the U value is (how much heat does that component lose per metre multiplied by area exposed)
    some typical U values can be found in the Green Building Bible
    3: Warm air rises so give more importance to your ceiling then the floor
    again read the GBB so that you understand the issues

    When you've worked out how important each existing component set is, you can then set to work on evaluating the financial and embodied costs of changing that set: In some circumstances, you may find that delaying installation or allowing for future installation is more worthwhile than doing it now

    Good luck
    • CommentAuthorJamesA
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2007
     
    Agree with looking at lime/hemp. Another factor in favour of the hemp insualtion is it will allow the walls to breathe - sealing old walls is rarely a good idea - they often have timber lintels, windows etc which will rot very quickly if moisture is trapped. On top of that, walls which are damp conduct heat much quicker. And condensation in timber floors will also encourage rot, death watch etc. Old houses can be made warm and efficient, but sealing a house which was designed to breath normally causes huge problems.
    Another option is Heraklith wood wall board, instead of dry lining, with lime plaster over the top.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 8th 2007
     
    Posted By: JamesAsealing a house which was designed to breath normally causes huge problems
    You've got to distinguish between air permeability/leakiness/airtightness on the one hand, and water vapour resistance/permeability/transparency on the other hand. They are two quite independent things - a building material can have either, both or neither. 'Breathing' should refer only to water vapour permeability.
  2.  
    I fail to understand how phenolic foam/celotex/plasterboard/mylar and the like can be regarded as 'green'. Maybe I'm being dim, but lime/hemp, like Tradical or IJP's spray-on gunge, has got to be far greener.
    And the breathability of an older building without cavity walls or other modern construction is vital. Clad the inside in polymers and you'll sealing moisture into the walls and turning your joist-ends into soggy Weetabix as sure as eggs is eggs.
    As for the 'fascists' who won't allow people to rip out windows from listed buildings and replace them with plastic monstrosities - count me in with the fascists! Looking at the desecration of our traditional buildings, I think there's a case to be made for banning some people from living in a pre-1914 house unless they pass certain criteria...
    • CommentAuthorken davis
    • CommentTimeNov 9th 2007
     
    fostertoms got the right direction as usual but nobody seems to appreciate that you will need lised building consent for the sort of internal changes being discussed and probably won't get it !
    in historic buildings you need to take a much more holistic approach which on the one hand might look at planting a wind 'screen' on the side of the house facing the dominant wind, and on the other looks at carbon reduction rather than concentrating on energy reduction per se i.e nothing wrong with burning wood!
    any internal improvements should be on the basis on minimal intervention and maximum reversibility e.g as much loft insulation as possible, insulate below ground against external walls, removeable secondary glazing sitting within existing openings, seasonal wall linings, shutters, foils (under carpets)over suspended floors, efficient heating systems, solar panels on adjacent outbuildings or against garden walls, ground source heat pumps (electricity supply from wind, mini-hydro, pv, or bio-fuel diesel generator) etc, etc
    • CommentAuthorrichardh
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2007
     
    Thanks for all the feedback there - this is the first chance I've had to respond, so please excuse the shotgun nature of this:

    fostertom, I've seen multiple references to hemcrete - would that be to apply a finishing surface directly to, or to provide a coupling for internal board insulation?

    passivhausfan, it's anything but foursquare: two wings of a complete courtyard complex, the larger wing being oriented E-W. Inside width is about 5.5m. We're taking up the downstairs concrete floor to insulate and add underfloor heating, so that'll help. Roof we're returning to full height, so will need min thickness/max effect for insulation between the beams - any recommendations there? And yes, we're having the battle with the Historic Scotland fascists over the windows - for Gervase's benefit, we're looking at renovating with ultra-slim (Slimlite) inserts for the sash windows or hardwood replacements - no plastic monstrosities here!

    ken, we've got a wind screen already: the whole complex has a rather useful moraine immediately to the west - when the North side of the glen are having their roofs torn off, we're getting our hair ruffled by a gentle breeze. So what helps us there also removes any easy wind energy solution... We're also putting in internal shutters (which it had originally) and most of the internal works involve taking out the partition walls put up in the 1980s and restoring the lovely floors underneath. So not anticipating any particular problems with listed building permission, except for the inevitable fight over the windows, where, in the current climate (literally), the attitude of Historic Scotland is, IMHO, deeply irresponsible. Oh yeah, and GSHPs are a hideously expensive rip-off for what is a very simple technology - I'm really starting to realise just how many money-soaking scams there are around sourcing and installing low-impact heating and power systems. All very British.

    I do take the point about permeability and vapour management - I'm inherently sympathetic to any approach that works with the building rather than trying to create a hermetic and synthetic capsule within it. Got a lot of idea and cost-balancing to do here.

    Thanks,
    Richard
  3.  
    richardh,

    Are the beams you mention the rafters?
    You won't get a very good U value unless you have insulation either on the inside or the outside of the rafters. Just putting it between the beams won't work well (unless these are 13"X1" I-beams or something!), because the conduction through the wood itself will always be high. I doubt you can put much insulation them and the tiles even if you are re-roofing so I would ask whether it's actually necessary to be able see the rafters. Problem if so! You could probably leave purlins exposed without much effect, though.

    fostertom, if you want more heat capacity, put more material on the inside of the insulation! 75mm of hempcrete just won't have a very good u value. The reason people like hempcete is mainly political. That said, trying to get good airtightness is important, and wet materials are good for this.
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