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General: External fittings on EWI

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    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014 edited
     
    Okay, so what about some form of plastic board instead of ply?

    Even better, what if we backed that plastic with 300 kPa EPS? Something like the attached sketch.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014
     
    Mm, cd be gd.

    Certainly the strength of the squirty foam bond between EPS block edges, or (with non expanding foam or polyurethane bubble glue) between board and EPS (the EPS breaks before the glue) has suggested this fixings method. Why wd you need to switch to 300kPa behind it?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomWhy wd you need to switch to 300kPa behind it?

    To help avoid the plate trying to compress the wall insulation at the bottom edge as it tries to turn off the wall from the downward pressure. (and we're going to have a lot leftover)


    Any ideas of what product to use for the board? Need to think of something I can go pick up from a shop/merchant today.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014
     
    Polythene kitchen cutting board? Ours are 10mm thk.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomPolythene kitchen cutting board? Ours are 10mm thk.

    Genius.

    You don't think worry about the 300 kPa?

    I guess the larger surface area we use for the board the better. 150 mm square for downpipe, garden taps and lights, then maybe a full small/medium kitchen board both top and bottom for fixing a gas meter.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014
     
    Ah but will the glues stick to polythene - the whole point is it's so slick.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014
     
    Hmm, I'll test it tonight on an old board.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014
     
  9.  
    Use something like 'Celuka' - plastic barge-board. Swish made it - well, they did 27 years ago! I am sure I stuck it with something way back when.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014 edited
     
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2014
     
    How strong is that, to take a screw, when we're worried that galv downpipes without or without ice buildup might overload the fat screw-in plugs?
  12.  
    FT and Shevek, I was comparing it to bread-boards, as the suggestions progressed. Not sure I'd use either myself! My comment was in response to the fact that adhesive would not stick to a bread-board. I think it might to plastic barge-board.

    I think I would use a big lump of timber for partial depth, and mesh and render, and hope it didn't crack.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2014
     
    A cavity/expanding type plug would grip behind the board. I was worried about the pull-out resistance to simply screwing into a Celuka type board - might be fine, I don't know.

    Yes Nick I was fascinated by ways to use those plastic components - 27yrs ago was it? - if I knew then what I know now!
  14.  
    I confess to having a 'portico' (replacing a knackered timber one) built of it!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2014
     
    Posted By: ShevekOkay, so what about some form of plastic board instead of ply?

    Even better, what if we backed that plastic with 300 kPa EPS?

    I think I'd trust the EPS300 by itself. Maybe use a spiral anchor or dig a hole and fill it with an epoxy+filler mix.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 19th 2014
     
    Not familiar - is EPS300 notable denser, tougher to the feel, than ordinary EPS70?

    If it gives confidence, maybe the way is to drill say a 40mm hole into the EPS70, where fixings are needed, glue in a plug of EPS300 and put a spiral anchor into that.

    Special tool, anyone? a long tubular hole saw (or hot-edge element) could both cut the hole and make the plug.
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014
     
    Posted By: fostertomSpecial tool, anyone? a long tubular hole saw (or hot-edge element) could both cut the hole and make the plug.

    I've not tried the idea in this circumstance, but would a piece of plastic pipe pushed & rotated into the EPS be "hole saw" enough in itself?

    I used that sort of approach using a piece of 100mm pipe as a "cookie cutter" of sorts when I wanted some 100mm circles cutting out of a sheet of 50mm EPS,
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014 edited
     
    No mucking about, we just stuck a full panel of 300 kPa EPS in.

    Tom, yes, 300 kPA is considerably denser. If I push my thumb into as hard as I can it only makes as indentation of about 2 mm.
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: ShevekNo mucking about, we just stuck a full panel of 300 kPa EPS in.


    I'd be interested to see the data sheet for 300kPa EPS?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2014
     
    Hmm, had a look back through my paperwork and I think it might be 250 kPa rather than 300. Don't have a data sheet unfortunately. Got it through a company called Future Found or Built Lite.
  21.  
    Cutting big holes in E/XPS covered in this thread a year ago

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=10977

    I have a selection of plastic "holesaws" for different pipes going through ICF. They work fine.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2014
     
    Posted By: SaintI'd be interested to see the data sheet for 300kPa EPS?

    I've attached the data sheet for my foundations.

    Posted By: ShevekHmm, had a look back through my paperwork and I think it might be 250 kPa rather than 300.

    As I understand it, EP300 is very rare in England and EPS250 is more common. I got mine from Eire.
  23.  
    If you are requiring high density polystrene that is more readily available then extruded rather than expanded should be looked at - 300kPa would be normal for XPS.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2014
     
    XPS doesn't 'breathe' like EPS so is not favourite.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2014
     
    What do the wood fibre EWI people do? Same problem?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2014
     
    Posted By: ShevekWhat do the wood fibre EWI people do? Same problem?

    Dunno, but I suppose the obvious thing to put in a woodfibre-covered wall to provide a strong area would be a bit of wood!

    In boatbuilding, if there's a soft core (balsa or plastic) it's normal to make a bigger hole and fill it with some resin+filler to distribute the load and make a strong point. For really strong point the whole core is taken out and solid GRP (or CRP) is used.
  27.  
    Shevek, I don't have EWI (yet), but have 100mm wood-fibre IWI in one room, and I am the proud owner of lots of very long screws! I have a clock hanging off a 100mm screw into the w/f alone, but I would not trust that for granny's china cabinet!
  28.  
    Posted By: fostertomXPS doesn't 'breathe' like EPS so is not favourite.


    XPS does "breathe" though, it is not like you are putting a sheet of steel in! Higher density EPS by its nature gets less vapour permeable the more beads you expand into the block.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2014
     
    EPS range 100-750; XPS range 600-1500. AFAIK EPS is about 120, XPS something over 600, so it's v much more resistant, esp as EPS is already on the borderline of 'breatheable-useful'. I'd be interested to see data that says that denser EPS is more resistant - are you sure? Just checking - you're not saying that dense EPS is same stuff as XPS?

    Annoyingly (because I dislike foamed insulations), polyurethane foam is also not too resistant, at 115-1000 (but that could mean foamed in situ, not boards - and NB foil faced boards are def something else), but AFAIK all the other foams are too resistant.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2014 edited
     
    Anyone know where to buy plastic fir tree fixings (for Trueline arch and bell cast beads, which I think are 9 mm aperture) and spiral anchors?

    Edit: For spirals I found these (I notice they do Soudafoam B3 for £2.90/can too):
    http://www.amaroc.co.uk/products/insulation-spiral-anchor

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