Green Building Forum - Solar panel planning nightmare!

Solar panel planning nightmare!

JSHarris — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:41:23 +0100

Posted By: billt
I'm certainly not an expert on the legislation, but when I researched this last year for my installation in an AONB, my conclusion was that it was PD. I asked the council, and have two emails from senior planning officers confirming that planning permission was not required. No ones complained so far!

No, PP is definitely required for PV, either on the roof or ground mounted, in the Cranborne Chase and West Wiltshire Downs AONB, I've been told. I'm not sure about the others, but believe it depends on what they've included in their management plans. I believe you also need PP if you're in a National Park.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

ted — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 11:56:54 +0100

Arggh - NO!

You do not need planning approval for solar panels on a domestic roof anywhere in England or Wales* - whether it is a conservation area, AONB, NP or even a World Heritage Site. If any of these 'authorities' are saying otherwise then they are plainly mistaken.

Only if Part 40 PD rights have been removed for a property, or if your installation falls foul of any of the other conditions required by PD, do you need planning approval.

(* I'm not sure if Scotland have caught up with the change to roofs in conservations areas. They also have a condition the removes PD for solar panels within 3km of an aerodrome.)

Solar panel planning nightmare!

borpin — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 12:58:31 +0100

Posted By: tedArggh - NO!

JSH is a new build so there is no PD right now. Does that make a difference?

Solar panel planning nightmare!

Ed Davies — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:03:47 +0100

Ted: â€œI'm not sure if Scotland have caught up with the change to roofs in conservations areas.â€

No, they haven't; the relevant PD rights (Class 2B) do not apply in a conservation area.

Ted: â€œThey also have a condition the removes PD for solar panels within 3km of an aerodrome.â€

Are you sure? The document here:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2012/02/9140/downloads

doesn't contain the strings "3k", "3 k" or "three k".

It does mention safeguarding of aerodromes - it's one of the reasons you have to ask the planners before putting up a wind turbine. However, there's nothing special about solar panels - Class 2B allows lots of stuff (almost everything except balconies and wind turbines) within 1 metre of the walls or roof of the building and I can't see anything there related to safeguarding or whatever.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

Gavin_A — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:07:17 +0100

the 3kM from airports rule is only for non-domestic in scotland.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

ted — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:10:53 +0100

Ah, I knew I had read it somewhere - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2011/136/made

Solar panel planning nightmare!

ted — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:14:52 +0100

Posted By: borpin - "JSH is a new build so there is no PD right now. Does that make a difference?"

Depends on the planning conditions granted for the new build. They may have removed (or delayed) the PD.

See http://www.permitteddevelopment.org/New-houses-and-PD.php

Solar panel planning nightmare!

JSHarris — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:36:57 +0100

It looks like my local authority have been telling me porkies (oh, what a surprise!), however a couple of PV suppliers I've spoken to have said the same thing about the Cranborne Chase AONB having had PD rights removed for PV installations, too.

In my case PD has been removed as part of the PP, as seems to be the case with the majority of new planning approvals granted here, but all the same the LA told me clearly that all PV installations in this AONB had to have PP. In fact the same story is also still on the Navitron site, here: http://www.navitron.org.uk/page.php?id=65&catId=71

Quote: "If you live in a Conservation Area or in the Cranborne Chase or Dorset Downs Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, you will need planning permission for any solar panels that are to be installed on a wall or roof slope that faces a road or public footpath."

Other solar panel suppliers are still giving the same advice, it seems, so there may well be some degree of misunderstanding going on that's quite widespread.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

windy lamb — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:50:01 +0100

I think that some Planning Dept (in order to preserve the aesthetic of their patch) give fairly broad, if not misleading, advice relating to some development - just to put you off. This unprofessionalism has been creeping ever more into Local Authority Departments where once qualified professionals were employed, now "technical" staff sit. You get what you pay for.........

Solar panel planning nightmare!

JSHarris — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:59:37 +0100

Posted By: windy lambI think that some Planning Dept (in order to preserve the aesthetic of their patch) give fairly broad, if not misleading, advice relating to some development - just to put you off. This unprofessionalism has been creeping ever more into Local Authority Departments where once qualified professionals were employed, now "technical" staff sit. You get what you pay for.........

I think you're right. I challenged the charge for a telephone call to a planning officer last year (Â£90!) as I felt the charge was disproportionately high (I'm still awaiting the outcome). One thing I did was make an FOI request for the planning officers employment costs (not just salaries) so that I could work out what half an hour of their time really cost the LA. I was surprised to find that the most senior planning officer earned around the national average, as I'd rather suspected they'd be paid a bit more. Ordinary planning officers in that authority earn around Â£22k, IIRC.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

ted — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:03:10 +0100

In terms of PD in AONB's there is this document for Cranborne Chase - but note - IT IS 6 YEARS OLD. Anything in there pertaining to solar panels (there are some comments) is out of date as the subsequent legislation, in 2008-2011, has over-ridden it.

http://www.ccwwdaonb.org.uk/docs/GuidetoPermittedDevelopmentRights2006.pdf

This http://www.aonb.org.uk/wba/naaonb/naaonbpreview.nsf/bde8521bf448d64080256ceb004a1670/fe2c23f6d9ef133a8025768000384e15/$FILE/Solar%20Panels%20final.pdf is a bit more up to date nad has a general pro-solar approach (and contains some nice illustrations indicating how panels can be blended into a roofscape) but is still incorrect when it suggests that planning approval is required for solar on a roof in a conservation area.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

JSHarris — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:17:07 +0100

That first paper accurately reflects the position of my planners - if solar panels project above the surface of the roof then they will refuse permission (it's why I was researching in-roof solutions a couple of months ago on here). They have been ignoring the not more than 200mm projection guidance, and interpreting "projection above the roof" as being about the same as a roof light. Given the hoops they are making me jump through on roof lights this seems to fit.

It very much look as if the planners aren't staying up to date with amendments that have taken place over the past three years or so, which doesn't wholly surprise me. I am a bit annoyed to have been misled, though, especially when you have to pay a fee to get the advice in the first place.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

borpin — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:27:18 +0100

Posted By: JSHarrisIt very much look as if the planners aren't staying up to date with amendments that have taken place over the past three years or so, which doesn't wholly surprise me. I am a bit annoyed to have been misled, though, especially when you have to pay a fee to get the advice in the first place.

You have probably got them now though....

Solar panel planning nightmare!

joe90 — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 15:47:04 +0100

JSH, Why not ask for your money back as their answer was not "fit for purpose" and you may go to trading standards!!!!!

Solar panel planning nightmare!

SteamyTea — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:08:40 +0100

There is a bit in the IEE mag about PV and Heritage buildings this month, not reads it yet. Will try and scan it and post a link up.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

JSHarris — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 16:58:18 +0100

Anyone care to take a bet on how likely they are to give me money back? I reckon the chance is somewhere between zero and bugger all..............

What's worse is that a neighbour had to fork out for PP for a roof mounted PV installation last year, so they seem to have been using it as a bit of a "nice little earner" for a while. I'm not sure whether it's just ignorance or deliberate misuse of legislation in order to increase revenue. I suspect the latter, from the way they have been carrying on generally over the past year or so.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

joe90 — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:19:07 +0100

I agree you have little chance but I bet the threat, especially if you can prove the information they gave you was wrong may make them focus on giving the right advice in the future. I took our planning department to task a number of years ago with the threat of going public and trading standards (but I did it nicely) and they backed down and admited the advice they gave was wrong. If memory serves I got the information I required from the department of envoironment, transport and regions who governs what the local council can do, but dont quote me on that. It was all to do with PD for a loft conversion.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

windy lamb — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:49:48 +0100

JSH - As I recall a planning officer (proper one not a technical assistant) costed the LA Â£48/hr - about the same as an Environmental Health Officer, that included wages, NI, pension, office, admin support, etc - these for 2008 rates. We had to work this out for a contract we were doing, anyway- Â£90 for a phone call is taking the pee.

If the LA charge you for a service (professional advice) and then give demonstrably incorrect advice, ask for your money back. If they are not forthcoming make an official complaint, through their formal complaints procedure, and then complain to the Local Authority Ombudsman for maladministration and ask for your money back plus compensation. That always but always got my managers focused (I used to work in LA). One thing the Ombudsman really didn't like was LAs giving the public incorrect advice. Once you make a complaint to the Ombudsman your name is never forgotten and the service you receive is double checked. Oh what fun!

Solar panel planning nightmare!

CWatters — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:06:47 +0100

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention in this thread (sorry if I missed it) is that councils can remove permitted development rights from whole areas of their patch by issuing "Article 4 Direction". I would guess these are more likely in ANOB etc.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

CWatters — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:36:52 +0100

A case in Epsom was lost at appeal but I haven't tracked down the decision..

http://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/epsom_residents_fight_for_their_solar_panel_rights_5478/

http://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/we_will_not_be_moved_epsom_resident_loses_solar_panel_appeal_5478/

I think this is the house..
http://www.epsomguardian.co.uk/resources/images/1744449/?type=display

Solar panel planning nightmare!

ted — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:41:03 +0100

Posted By: CWattersOne thing I haven't seen anyone mention in this thread (sorry if I missed it) is that councils can remove permitted development rights from whole areas of their patch by issuing "Article 4 Direction". I would guess these are more likely in ANOB etc.

I did mention it on the last page. Also some interesting info on it in the Cranborne Chase 2006 doc I linked to above. Seems they are pretty rare.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

billt — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:53:31 +0100

If this is the house http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/resources/images/1770983/ my sympathies are with the council. It is an eyesore installation.

From http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/9250289.Man_refuses_to_remove_solar_panels_despite_losing_appeal/

Solar panel planning nightmare!

DamonHD — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:25:21 +0100

Nothing especially bad about that install nor beautiful about the roof surface they cover. In fact, I know which of the two I prefer.

Rgds

Damon

Solar panel planning nightmare!

borpin — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 20:36:08 +0100

Posted By: JSHarrisAnyone care to take a bet on how likely they are to give me money back?

Small Claims Court?

Solar panel planning nightmare!

willie.macleod — Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:12:58 +0100

Posted By: borpin
Posted By: JSHarrisAnyone care to take a bet on how likely they are to give me money back?
Small Claims Court?

Windy Lambs suggestion of the Local Authority Ombudsman won't cost anything, pretty much zero risk to JS Harris and if successful will be a bit of a black mark for the council which will be noticed at higher levels throughout the council. If the ombudsman doesn't come back on JSH side then likelihood of small claims succeeding is low. No need to take time out to go to court with ombudsman option either, it is a sensible option for any local authority complaint that is not getting resolved at a county level.

Solar panel planning nightmare!

SteamyTea — Sun, 01 Apr 2012 09:57:24 +0100

Emma
Still not read it but here is a scan of it
https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx?cid=698cc0950b10ccbd&resid=698CC0950B10CCBD!948&parid=698CC0950B10CCBD!123&authkey=!AEuK8qL_WyIE6A0

Solar panel planning nightmare!

Joiner — Sun, 01 Apr 2012 10:46:53 +0100

Any chance of page 58 while you're about it? A tantalising promise of more to come from the EH piece!

Pity about the last sentence in the piece from Ruchard Cass.

(In case anyone has a problem with the first incarnation of ST's link, click on 'View original' on the right and then use the + facility to zoom in and read.)

Solar panel planning nightmare!

SteamyTea — Sun, 01 Apr 2012 19:25:00 +0100

I read the rest today, shall scan it later, must have turned two pages when I looked at it this morning, sorry all

Solar panel planning nightmare!

EmmaG — Sat, 07 Apr 2012 19:54:14 +0100

Hi, just a quick update.
Dominic kindly rang the planning enforcement manager, but to no avail as yet - they are sticking to their bizarre interpretation of 'as far as practicable'.
So, guess the next step is to apply for a CLEUD, then if they turn it down at least an external (& hopefully sane)peson will get involved at appeal. Very annoying to have to fork out money to prove that I have done exactly what the legislation says!

Solar panel planning nightmare!

Ed Davies — Sat, 07 Apr 2012 20:05:30 +0100

Yes, seems a waste of money to me. Why not just ask them to get on an serve the enforcement notice so you can appeal that? It'd be cheaper but have the same effect - and they might back down.